1 100 5 https://ndajams.omeka.net/files/original/af424f008a633e2759e7dab6cb0ea4cc.pdf f8c09dc0476c30ab710627d2ebe2976b PDF Text Text Go For Broke National Education Center Oral History Project Oral History Interview with Isao James Doi, October 20, 2010, Seattle, Washington INTERVIEWER: It's October 20th, 2010. We're in Seattle, Washington with Jim Doi again. Lisa Sueki is on sound and catalogue, Steven Itano Wasserman is on camera, Richard is talking. Thank you once again for meeting with us this morning. We did it in an hour yesterday talking, and just wanted to start off this morning talking about your job more specifically. You did not deal so much with curriculum. DOI: No, that was, we defined textbooks pretty narrowly, okay. And one of the things I was involved in was working with the curriculum committee, you know, in what---which of these things call for special textbooks. Okay? And there is a difference between the two. The curriculum is supposed to be the larger picture, and that we did not deal---I did not deal with. That was done by the professionals. And they brought some very able people from the stateside. But not as a permanent staff. That is, they would come and maybe spend a couple a month or sometimes six month. They were committed to things in the U.S., you see, back home. Whereas in the case of Niseis, brought in, we---especially if you're from the mainland and not from Hawaii, you really didn't have a home to go back to, [laughs] and that had to be done. In the meantime, you know, like, for example, my wife and I, we were married, you know, about four month or three month before I left for overseas. You know, we hardly had time to spend on what you call a honeymoon. And when I got there, overseas, I would correspond, and I remember my wife asking me, "Is there something special you want?" as the first Christmas approached in Tokyo. And I said, "Yeah, the fellas and I, [02:00] we're hungry for simple things.” She says, “What is it?” “Onion, bulb onion, and a can of sardines." And she said, "You sure that's what you want?" I said, “Yes.” “Okay.” So she packed it dutifully and sent it. And that's what had as, you know, our hors d'oeuvres on our Christmas day, okay? As simple as that, and yet the fellas crowded around, “Oh, great, great,” you know [laughs]. INTERVIEWER: See, that's one of the things that kind of interesting, because despite the internment experience, and the concentration camp you were sent to . . . DOI: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: . . . you grew up American, with a culture and . . . DOI: Oh yes, yes. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 1 of 43 �INTERVIEWER: . . . certain tastes and appetites and so forth. Suddenly, you're in Tokyo. DOI: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: What are some of the differences that you saw, comparing American culture to Japanese culture, specific to postwar Japan. They're defeated. DOI: Okay, first of all, of course, there was no way you could escape the horrible thing that war does. For example, between Tokyo and Yokohama, the first view of real Japan, as we got off the ship and got on board the train, we were going through an area where all we saw were naked bricks, and all the chimneys are blasted, you know. It was flat, except for these chimneys that hung up and, you know. And also some of the so-called towers, like metal things that withstood the damage, er the bombs and so on. And it was dismal. And I thought, “Well, what are we supposed to do here?” But for some peculiar reason, the center of Tokyo, the station, the train station, okay, and some of the subway system were functional. And the hotel we stayed at, it was only about two blocks from [04:00] the main Tokyo station. And the fellows used to laugh at my initial reaction, my first Japanese person that I actually talked to. You know, we had to carrying these heavy packs, you know, with a gun, empty gun, and so forth. And then the shovels and all that. And here we're in the city, now, even though it was, you know, blasted. But the buildings were still standing, many of them. And as I got off, we had to walk about three blocks from the train station to the hotel where we were billeted. Okay? And as I was walking, my gun in my pack it was falling off my shoulders, you know. And then finally I said, I'm about ready to drop them, so I stopped a man. He was dressed in something like a uniform, but I think it was just conventional simple, you might say daily wear. And I said “Oh, chotto matte kuda[sai].” I called to him, “Come over here. Hold my gun for me.” [Laughter.] There was no shells in it, you know. And then my friend, he looked stunned, you know. I said, “Chotto matte kudasai,” because I had to shift everything over, see. Then I grabbed it and said, “Arigato,” you know [laughs]. I bet he thought, “What kind of GIs are these? What kind of soldiers are they?” Here's this, you know, he was in the middle age, and he probably went home and had a real story to tell. He spoke to me, he spoke to me in Japanese and said please take this gun for me [laughs] while he changed over. And somehow, you know, the war was over. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. DOI: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 2 of 43 �And we showed it in the behavior of that time. The other thing, you know, that really struck home, though, one of the saddest experiences, and I still remember, [06:00] I think he may still be alive yet. But he was the one that we used to call the Bible man, because he was genuinely religious. And he had my job equivalent to mine, right across the hall, in department of religious, okay? And that was a very small group, a couple of field-grade officers, majors and so forth, who had a military background, and he was a real committed Christian, okay? And no one else, had a secretary or so. But I asked 'em, "What do you guys do?" Well, they visited monuments and this and that and so forth. Because the Japanese did not spend a lot of time dealing with religious issues in a regular curriculum, you see. And---but I---we used to go out together, and I remember Christmas day came, and the Red Cross was out before the USO building. You know, what the USO is? Okay. And they set up very quickly, and they were passing out candy, you know, those little, what do you call, Christmas candy in the little box they have. And this friend of ours came up to me and grabbed a couple of my other friends, you know, "Come on, I need you. I need your help. I need your help." I said, "What do you want?" "Never mind, I'll tell you when we get there." And so we ran across the street, it wasn't very far from our billeting area. And all these guys were lined up, you know, getting one or two packs of those candies. And then we went through and got a couple of 'em, went back, he grabbed it and says, "Go back, go back again." It was cold, you know, I says, “Boy, December, cold,” I says. And I can only make a couple more of these [laughing] trips, you know. And as it happened, they say---thanked us, and said, "Now, come on now, Jim," he called me and a couple other guys. He says it took us right to the station. And we got in a, [08:00] you know, in a train, and "Where are you headed for?" Such and such a station. I said, "Well, that's battered, you know, I understand it's not functioning." "I know, but there are people there." “There are?” I said. Went there, and it was close to functioning as a station, because of the bombing. You know, there were so-called, what do they call, tunnels like, you know, people normally use to get on and off train. They were just battered and crushed and so on. And then he walked in and he called out. Called out, “Oy, oy!” you know. And then I saw little kids coming out. Some of them carrying little ba[bies]---little brothers or sisters, you know, carrying them, and they were coming out. And they looked battered. I said, “Oh my God,” I said. He says---so he gave us these boxes of candy, “Give them a couple piece,” a couple piece, you know. And we stood there with them, there were just about four of us with them. And the---and then we ran out, and we got back on the car, and I was frozen, it was cold, those tunnels are unheated. And after, “Okay, what did we accomplish?: I said, you know. And it was cold as hell, you know. Those kids are gonna be dead tomorrow. Or day after tomorrow. I saw so-andso with this, you know, battered eye, no medicine, carrying along in a little---just one just barely past infancy, okay. And it was clear that these were the lost children, lost children, L-O-S-T. Nobody was looking after them. The government bureaus had not yet regained their function, capacity function. And so I pointed this out to him, as we said---and then he---[10:00] my friend looked at me and said, "Yes, but they had---they die with a sweet taste in their mouth." I said, “Oh my God.” That phrase stuck with me the rest of my life. I say, yes, there's a sweet taste in their mouth, they die. I felt like crying then, you know. In fact I still do [laughs]. I've never seen such small children so helpless. And when we can't do anything, except give them a piece of candy, a sweet taste, at least it's something. Okay? And it's interesting, because his daughter later popped up and she didn't, I told her this story. She said, "Well, he said something like that,” he said, you know, the father. He did become a career minister, This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 3 of 43 �okay? And so he followed through, and I wasn't sure what I wanted to be, but nonetheless, that was one of the most instructive thing in my life. And so one of the things about my views of war, I saw some things in the Philippines, you know, and some---and I---that led me to, you know, not to feel sorry for myself. Life could be a hell of a lot worse. Okay? And, yeah, I won't go into the discussions I had with philosophers, you know, on the meaning of death. And the meaning to be alive under terrible conditions. I thought we had it tough in the concentration camps. But [laughs] hell, they were picnics by comparison to what these kids were going through. INTERVIEWER: What's fascinating, here you are this 20-year-old kid, 21-year-old kid, and you see this, and you experience it. Hard to make sense of it and see it in a context of perspective as you speak of it now. DOI: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: So at the time, what a moving experience. DOI: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: [12:00] It seems throughout Japan at that time, there were countless moving experiences. DOI: Yes, yes. INTERVIEWER: And one of them that interested me is, because you got into CIE [Civil Information Education] section, that led to a wonderful educational career. DOI: It did, it did. INTERVIEWER: But I can't remember, and I just---if you told us yesterday, please repeat it. How did---how were you selected to go to CIE? DOI: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 4 of 43 �I don't know! INTERVIEWER: [Laughs.] DOI: What it was, you know, we were in the Dai-Ichi Building, you know, we would call in fourth and we knew that we were getting assigned. And the lieutenant read off my name, there were about ten of us, you know. And he went down the list, says, there were six of us, or seven, eight. The lieutenant read out, “Doi,” you know, “step forward.” He says, “Okay, Doi,” and he says, "you're going to the Civil Information Education,” Tokyo hall, Hosokaikan. It was a Radio Tokyo building. That's where it was located. So I said, "What the hell am I supposed to do, sir?" [Laughs.] You know, we're all questioning. He said, "Well, you're gonna be assigned to the newspaper division over there." I said, "Newspaper?" "Yeah, censorship, you know what that is." “Oh yeah, yeah, okay, I get the general idea.” So see, because my cri---my biograph---biography that I had with the military had, very simple one, indicated that I had some newspaper experience, remember in camp, okay, I was the special reporter on events and so on. They saw that and---they want to fill up the newspaper, you know, staff, for censorship. But it was post-censorship. It was after it's published, you know, then you comment upon those and see me, and then we'll go also to the U.S. or non-supportive, whatever, you know. It was a very simple operation. [14:00] And I didn't enjoy it at all. And pretty soon they says, “Hey, the education division needs somebody to come and work with them.” And I [raises his hand], “Let me give it a try.” Because, you see, I had worked very closely with high school teachers, you know, I went to a marvelous high school, 3,500 students. I graduated a valedictorian. So I was a teacher's pet. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember the speech you gave? DOI: Yes. INTERVIEWER: What was it about? DOI: Being an American, how proud I am [laughs]. That was it. INTERVIEWER: Are you kidding me? DOI: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 5 of 43 �I'm not kidding ya. INTERVIEWER: Wow. DOI: [Laughs.] And a few months later, we're in camp. This is the irony of life, okay? You know, it was published somewhere, one of the journals, our local journals, you know. And I saw it, you know, when I went to the library, and someone told me it was published. And I never went back to that after the occupation experience [laughs]. That's the irony of it. I was a valedictorian, I was all ready to go to Berkeley, had been admitted, and then boom, the war breaks out, all of a sudden now I'm---I don't know, I wouldn't say hostile, but questionable [laughs]. INTERVIEWER: Wow. DOI: Okay? INTERVIEWER: So, so back to CIE. You had worked with some high school teachers. You were valedictorian. DOI: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And you had---this newspaper gig, job they gave you just wasn't . . . DOI: No. But, you know, but the working, however, with, you know, the education division, and it was a naval, he was a lieutenant commander, and he got promoted to full commander before I left. He was from Stanford. And he directed the textbook [16:00] until we---MacArthur issued---some general up there issued the fact that they wanted to clear the educational material of all things hostile, and then we'll go to the U.S., send an ally, et cetera, okay? And I reported to him, and he said---he was a very liberal guy. He was good friend. And he said, "Jim," he says, you know, "I'm gonna count on you." Because we had Japanese who were bilingual and who seemed willing to work, you know. And they were the major staff. And then there was a gal from---who was French citizen or British citizen. She was from a family of people who worked in international relations for Japan. And she was part French and fluent in French, and I think she was fluent in Japanese too, and English. And a beautiful girl, barely 18. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 6 of 43 �INTERVIEWER: You're a married man. DOI: Pardon me? I was. INTERVIEWER: I know. DOI: And she used to come and talk to me. Man, they were crawling all over her, trying to [laughs] let's say that, because she was a real good-looker. INTERVIEWER: Oh sure, and smart. DOI: Yeah, and smart as a . . . INTERVIEWER: Best combination. DOI: Yeah. And I used to help her, she says, “What is . . .” Well, she got billeted with the British. I don't think that helped her any, but [laughs] I'm sure British had similar tastes as American men. And then I---so we---and I needed---so let's---I asked her, I says, "Say, do you have any facilities to dry clean, you know, our clothes?" We had woolen suits, you know, so-called uniforms. And I wanted to get it cleaned, you know. And she says, "Oh yeah, we have cleaning services, I'll do that." "Is there anything I can do for you?" "Yes, can you get a hold of oranges and apples and things, fruit?" See [18:00] this is winter, don't forget, okay, all right? And she diet---from strictly a diet point of view. And her eating, she wasn't one of these that buries herself in greasy meats, which the British serve, [laughs] the Canadians, whatever group she was staying with. But anyway, so, “Oh yeah, yeah, I'll . . .” So I used to---they just, you know, cafeteria for GIs, it was very good. At the end of the line, you know, they had bowlfuls of oranges and apples and so forth. And I just grabbed two or three of those, stuck in my pocket, and I gave it to her, see, periodically. And that's how we exchanged things, you know, got things done. And that's the other thing too, you know, you learn to exchange something that you have that someone wants, in order to get certain services. Actually buying things, it wasn't the way things worked there under those conditions, you see. Because you might say money is valueless, practically. It's really the service or the thing that you can eat or wear. Okay? And I got some nice suits made, from silk. You know, that's after This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 7 of 43 �I got this---left the service, I had to buy my daily clothes. Yeah, it wasn't at all expensive, you know. And, in fact, the tailor was just about a block away from my office. Anyway, the . . . INTERVIEWER: The colonel. DOI: Yeah, the---now, the job---the problem I had and the reason why---by the time I left after three years or so, you know, I had been promoted, you know, a number of times. Because Wunderlich went, and that guy named, [20:00] Trainor, took over. And he was also a lieutenant commander in the Navy. And he had a Ph.D. from the University of Washington in education. At that time, University of Washington had no meaning for me, you see. But anyway, he was a pretty efficient guy and he knew how to use people. And then the thing is, after---and then he was promoted to another level. And then the thing is, oh, and then they went on a search. And they---and then he was the first one to become a civilian. In other words, postwar jobs, military and, so-called, the outfit that controlled the occupation of Japan and Korea and et cetera, advertised for services, service op. And he was a former missionary. INTERVIEWER: And this is Joseph Trainor? DOI: No, no, Harkness. INTERVIEWER: Oh, Harkness. DOI: Is there Harkness there? INTERVIEWER: Yeah, mm-hmm. DOI: Okay. INTERVIEWER: Okay. DOI: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 8 of 43 �And he had just given up his post in Kansas or somewhere, typical small-town missionary, you know. And he took over, and he didn't know what the hell it was all about. See, he was not a military man to begin with, okay? [Laughs.] And so, therefore, that, you know, you knew he was treated like---in fact, he had the highest rating of a civilian, CI and E. And a lot of the officers were a little ticked off, you know, this guy who seemed ignorant as all hell, you know, and only real experience he had was that of a missionary, which is very different from being an educational changer, you see. And he was good to me, because he had to be. He didn't speak the language. He [22:00] had no experience. And I was, you know, practically a pro [laughs] after my first year and a half. I learned from these guys very quickly. And they gave me a jeep, you know, at my level, because I had to cover schools and school districts. INTERVIEWER: Who were some of your mentors? Do you remember their names at all? DOI: Well, you mean, not Japanese, you mean . . . INTERVIEWER: Yeah, the hakujin. DOI: Oh, hakujin? Well, Trainor, Wunderlich, Trainor, those are the key people. Wunderlich decided to come back home, because he didn't want to be from Stanford too long. I think he had---hadn't quite finished his dissertation. And at the same time, when he got promoted to commander which is, let's see, in Army terms that's, let's see, what is it? It's from major to colonel, isn't it? There was no in between in the military. INTERVIEWER: A lieutenant colonel. DOI: Oh, lieutenant colonel, yeah, he was promoted to lieutenant colonel. And he was laughing, and he says, "If they were to promote me to full col---to captain, you know, my son would never believe it." See, he had a son he was proud of, you know. And so he said---actually, let me tell you where he ended up. On a farm in Idaho, not too far away from Wazoo [ph]. But there's a creek over there that I went fishing. And he lived there and he called and said, "Come and visit me." I don't know why, but I just didn't. I don't know why, but I just didn't, yeah. But first of all, you know, Wazoo is not exactly friendly country for me. I was told, “Don't ever drive your car over there with a license plates that could be identified as Seattle,” [laughs] okay? Anyway, [24:00] but he left high recommendations for me, and so did Trainor, you know. And . . . This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 9 of 43 �INTERVIEWER: And is that because you would go around to different prefectures and visit the schools through military government and check on 'em? DOI: Well, that's part of it. INTERVIEWER: Okay. DOI: I usually followed somebody. They would ask for me to be the companion interpreter. INTERVIEWER: Oh really? DOI: That's what---that's why I traveled. INTERVIEWER: Did you know a guy named Koji Kawaguchi by any chance? DOI: No. INTERVIEWER: Okay, long shot, sorry, just had to throw it out. DOI: Okay. The only other Japanese American ex-GI, which I became, you know, instead of---they offered me a lieutenancy. But I said, “Hell no, for God sakes,” you know, “I've had enough of this cr**.” And I was glad I was getting out because I would've been shoved into Korea. I would've been called back. Quite a few of my friends were called back, you know. They took a reserve and stayed in the military. One of my brother-in-law, the youngest one, he served in Tokyo for a while. He wasn't especially good in Japanese, but he did all right. But anyway, when he stepped out, he thought he was free, and then Korea broke out, and next thing he was back in the military, in the Marines, that's what he was. INTERVIEWER: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 10 of 43 �Ooh. Wow. DOI: He was in that real mess, you know, that Korea. And I had an inkling that it could happen, because the officers, you know, they were talking this and that. INTERVIEWER: I think with Trainor and Wunderlich . . . DOI: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: What did they think highly of with you? They wrote good reviews, so there was something you had to offer that they recognized. What was it? DOI: Well, it's hard to say, well, except that, of the people there, this other fella from Hawaii, [26:00] he had a degree already. And he had---he was aiming for a career in civil service, but, what part was it now? Oh yeah, customs. Checking fruits and veggies, veggies and so forth. And he was a little, few years older than I. But the thing that he asked of me to teach him was poker. He didn't know how to play poker. And the Hawaiians loved big game. And I asked him about a six month after, you know, I taught him the basics, you know, and he said [sic], “How you doing? "Oh, I lost $500 last night." I said, "Can you afford that?" Said, "No," he said [laughs]. But we were buddies, okay? And---but he looked to me for leadership. I was younger than he, but he didn't have the experience of dealing with Caucasians. See in Hawaii, it's a limited cultural, dominated by Asian, and Japanese in particular in those days. Okay? So therefore, they're getting used to Caucasian was a new experience for me [sic], whereas I grew up in a community, we're next to Japanese or Caucasians. I only had about two or three blacks in that whole school. INTERVIEWER: Right, you were telling us yesterday, primarily Caucasian. DOI: Yeah, you know. That so-called diverse population nation came after the war or during the war it increased and, you know, changed a lot. But---so then, I became very good friends with the five Japanese men. One was a woman, but she didn't stay very long as I recall. And the others were, one had a Master's degree from Harvard, er, not Harvard, Columbia. And he became my lieutenant. [28:00] He could handle very, very versatile, linguistically speaking. And he also he knew his history very well. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 11 of 43 �And so did Baba, the second guy I trusted. He was a little less open, but nonetheless capable of good criticism, you know, of the material that we were producing and checking. And therefore, is that---that was very easy for me. And because the other officers, I train 'em, and when the others saw that, they turned to me for, you know, to contact and leadership. Naturally then I would put---and then I'd---well, after Harkness came, and Harkness would definitely get in difficulties. One of the worst being is that he expected a present of some value every time he went and visited. He was told this was custom. I said, “No, it's not custom, sir,” you know, I tried to explain to him. But he got to the point where he expected it and the Japanese knew it. That was a terrible reputation. So even the Japanese turned to me, because they knew I wouldn't get confused with what the hell they're all about, [laughs] okay? And, I don't know if I want anything said of this, because his relatives may---he may have ended up as a hero for all I know. But he was not very popular with the other colleagues too, Caucasian coll[eagues], you know. First of all, see, he was not a professional educator. He was a minister. INTERVIEWER: See, that's what's fascinating, because at that time, the Army brought in all these guys . . . DOI: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: . . . that were in different phases of getting their Ph.D.s or they had experience with education . . . DOI: Right, right, right, yeah. INTERVIEWER: It was actually, as I understand it, and I don't want to overstate, but would you agree that it was a pretty powerhouse team? DOI: Powerhouse team? INTERVIEWER: Yeah. DOI: What do you mean it was a pretty powerhouse [30:00] team? INTERVIEWER: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 12 of 43 �Guys knew what they were doing. Guys who had interesting ideas. DOI: No, no I made that, I made that commentary in my dissertation. INTERVIEWER: Oh, okay. What was it then? DOI: Well, basically, what it is is that they knew they had to work. And, you know, the Japanese understood the military perhaps better than we did, the Americans did. Because it was more militaristic, you know, in the '30s and so on. So they had already been at war in 1936. That's when the China-Japan war started, and then became World War II, you know. But the thing is is that the---that's the problem that they had in the ministry, because the Ministry of Education was filled with people who were bureaucrats, but bureau [tape skips]---atian. Okay? So they knew the rules. And there's was more or less trying to adapt to the American rules and arguing with them when they differed. INTERVIEWER: What did they resist the most? DOI: Well, the thing they resisted the most was epitomized by that incident I described to you, when Minister Morito was called for by this general, you know. “Get the legislature,” whatever the equivalent of the legislature, “to adopt the principle of operating schools by an elected board of lay people.” That's the American system, all right? No centralized. It was highly centralized, Ministry of Education, and then the prefectures had their assignments, you know, people who used to lead there. But they were all extensions of the Ministry of Education. Ours is every state has its own, every village has its own, you see. And this is what they said, [32:00] or when there's opposition, Japanese opposed it. And I tried to interpret that to them, why, I said because they respect their teachers so much that it was unthinkable that teachers should now be supervised by ordinary parents [laughs] and laymen, anybody who gets elected, you know, that just runs against their grain they evolved. And they respected the school. That's the reason why so the Japanese schools---well, at that time I couldn't say it, but years later I came to say they were very efficient, well-managed. Because they didn't have the problems that we did, you know. All right? For example, in Japan, if elementary schoolteachers, basically the mothers, once the curriculum is announced, and they got their textbooks and so forth assigned, they would go buy their own copy of textbooks and study it so they could help the child. Okay? [Laughs.] So when publications--I had to deal with that, because, “Hey, I thought we approved so many hundred thousand copies of this. How come you're short?” “Oh, the mothers buy it.” [Laughs.] I said, “Oh, I didn't realize.” They cleared, so-called, it was another, you know, client population. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 13 of 43 �INTERVIEWER: You do a second and third printing. DOI: That's right. INTERVIEWER: Oh my God. DOI: You see, and I hadn't---nobody alerted me to that. You know, to them it's so common, see, they took it for granted. INTERVIEWER: No kidding. DOI: So that's why I had to change the---because I had---by that time I had been made an assistant director of that division, that particular function. And---but that's, see, I had come to understand how things worked. I was not trained in any way, never had a course in college. Well, I did have a course in college for one year. But not in education, however. INTERVIEWER: How did you figure this out? This is the thing that I love to hear is, you're tossed into a position, they say “Hey you, you're gonna work for CIE now.” DOI: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: [34:00] So, boom, you go. DOI: Well, a lot of that is just plain Army, that's all. The lieutenant called us together had six, six or seven guys that he had to assign. And that was his job, you know. And then ATIS [Allied Translator and Interpreter Section], as it was called, our organization, we were all there, and I knew most of 'em. I don't know how many, ran into thousands, but they were assigned to different areas. Every division, military division, had an assignment of a guy or two, who were trained in MIS, military intelligence. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 14 of 43 �INTERVIEWER: Right. DOI: Although the war was over, but they needed someone who could interpret. That's the other thing. INTERVIEWER: So how do you figure out, if you're sent to CIE, and they throw you in there, how do you figure out how to do your job? Who gives you direction? Who orients you? Who---how does that work? DOI: We learned together. The reason that being is that the military officers are officers, but they weren't necessarily trained as bureaucrats. I mean, you know, government and everything. Now they did go through, most of these high, well, especially at the major level, major, lieutenant colonel, you know, okay, and some captains. Like University of Colorado, at a program we were working with the Navy officers trained for military governance. And that's where it [tape skips] what they could, you know. They didn't know much about, they must have put together some kind of curriculum, because they had several of those scattered across the country. You see, University of Colorado happens to be one of them. And the only reason why I knew something about it is because later I was the Associate Provost of University of Colorado, see. Now, you asked me how did I learn to be that, it wasn't the military, it's just common sense, I guess. And then I also had a good mentor, you know. And . . . INTERVIEWER: And that was Trainor? DOI: [36:00] No, that was Russell. INTERVIEWER: Russell. DOI: This is a civilian now. INTERVIEWER: Okay. DOI: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 15 of 43 �But he did go back to Ja[pan]---he did---he was called to Japan sometime after the war. They were---he was very popular in Japan. I don't know how he did it, you know. Of course, he was such a right-wing Christian, I thought, well that will get in his way, you know. But, no, he adapted. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. When they first started implementing the education reform, for lack of a better term, as I understand it, but please correct me, there was a bit of a purge. DOI: Yes. INTERVIEWER: What was that about, tell me about that. DOI: I never understood it [laughs]. Of course these---the purge is just not---it's not just one event. It's a general event. That's only way you can [indiscernible]. First of all, the major one, you know, that I knew would lead to troubles, but they couldn't avoid it. All that I had heard, all military officers at the rank of major and above had to undergo a review, and many of them were forbidden from governmental jobs, teaching jobs, for X number of years, depending upon the severity of their involvement as a warrior who resented the fact that they lost the war, okay [laughs]. INTERVIEWER: And that's Japanese. DOI: Japanese. INTERVIEWER: Japanese, Japanese, Japanese. DOI: Yeah, okay? And I got to know some of 'em, you know, not well, but some of 'em, you know. And I just said, “I don't blame you,” you know. “You were doing what was patriotic. And you were good at it. And therefore, now you're being punished. But that's because you lost the war,” as simple as that, you know. There's no other reason. Let's put it this way, there's no sense in getting philosophical about it, okay? And I---[38:00] there was a lieutenant on our side, and he asked for my services many times. His job, along with several others officers, was to ferret out these guys and visit them. And sometimes he got into some difficulty and he would ask me if I would go with him, you know. So it was---I just---that was This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 16 of 43 �part of the function of the department I was with. I was one of the key interpreters, you see. And at the same time, I think in many ways, as officers said is that, “I can talk to you.” They can talk to me. I respond, see. And that was the difference between me and Morish---this---I can't think of his name, the one I mentioned, the Hawaiian kid. INTERVIEWER: Right. DOI: You know, I was---he was older than I and had a degree from Hawaii, okay? He was very able, I thought, except for one thing: He did not relate to others in such a way that they wanted more of it. Okay? And the only difference that I saw was the fact that, oh, you know, they would compliment me as a human being, because I would interact very easily and very quickly. INTERVIEWER: I don't want to press you too much, but I'm curious . . . DOI: What? INTERVIEWER: . . . about that interaction. DOI: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: If you could define that a little more for me to help me understand why someone who want to meet you again. There's something about the way you did it, what did you do? DOI: Well, I got quickly eliminated. I didn't act like an ex-soldier, for one thing. When I dealt with the Japanese, I dealt with them as another human being talking to another human being. Okay? And that's why they used to comment on it, the Japanese, you know. [40:00] And they spoke of me as a great young man, because I was---they could talk to me, and I wasn't lording it over them. INTERVIEWER: Something that simple. It's just your approach. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 17 of 43 �DOI: Simple as that. I just treated them as another human being, you know, caught up in the events of the times, you see. INTERVIEWER: Wow. DOI: Somehow, I gained that perspective. INTERVIEWER: I think your wife probably had something to do with it, huh? DOI: Oh yeah. INTERVIEWER: [Laughs.] DOI: Yeah. My wife was---she could win loyal friends in two minutes [laughs]. INTERVIEWER: She sounds like a remarkable woman. DOI: They really, they really loved her, you know. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, from what you've said. So you're getting a reputation. Now, that's another thing culturally that interests me. And, you know, it crosses [indiscernible; simultaneous talking] . . . DOI: Yeah, yeah. INTERVIEWER: . . . your reputation, but particularly in Japan, amongst the Japanese. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 18 of 43 �DOI: Yes. INTERVIEWER: How important is that? DOI: I don't know. I mean, you put---I've never had---I've never thought seriously about how it is I came to be trusted by the Japanese, you know, and how it is, what did they really think of me. I made some very good friends. And even after the war, people would come, you know, they heard of me. And they usually had a problem or question, it was very simple, you know. And---well, in part, I think it has to do with the fact that I had such a difficult childhood. My father and mother were divorced when I was four. And they took two sisters and my younger one, mother went back to Japan, never saw her again. My father was not a very good father, [42:00] okay? And so therefore is that I was---he wanted to turn me over to the Salvation Army in San Francisco. That's where all unwanted children [laughs] went. And--but my cousins they said, "No, no, no, no, no, no. Sore ikenai." And one of 'em who was not wealthy at all, a farmer, they had three children who were all older than I, but so they figured they could handle another one. I was seven. Because I had to be put back, put in school, imagine going from four to seven, I just---my father just dragged me around here and there, and the reason why I became such a great---I knew a lot about mathematics and gambling. Gambling and mathematics went together. You know, so when I went to school, I couldn't speak much English. But, man, I could do the numbers [laughs]. The teachers couldn't figure me out. INTERVIEWER: [Laughs.] That's hilarious. DOI: What? INTERVIEWER: That's hilarious, I love that. DOI: And for that reason, I never told them why. I saw no reason to, except that they---oh yeah, I had to give up my, the deck of cards I had in my hip pocket. Pretty soon the kids gathered around me during recess, you know, we had this tall grass, you know. And this was a little country school, 80 students, that's all they had. And my class was---there was eight, graduating class from grammar school. Okay? And when I went to school, I hardly knew any English, you know. But fortunately, the cousins that, you know, and family that adopted me, actually were older, so they could, you know, help me different ways. Anyway, This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 19 of 43 �so when I got there, school, it was a puzzle for me. But they found out [44:00]---the teachers and others learned that I knew mathematics, you know. Multiplication, division, you know, so forth, that type of thing. But I was quick, you know, all that. And I learned English very rapidly until I became one of the best teachers, er, best readers. And when I was---they used me from the time I was in grade six and seven and eight with the principal, she spoke and the teacher spoke no Japanese. And they had a high Japanese population, with the parents were first generation parents, and they did not speak English all that well. And there I was bilingual. You know. And so the teachers would send---they called me Isao. It's in the last year that the teachers suggested that I adopt Christian name, okay. [Laughs.] That's how I got the name James. Okay. But anyway, when the kid's in trouble of some kind, academically or, you know, the teachers couldn't---there was no point in---she was no point in---she'd drive over to the farm and, you know, talking to the parents. Of course, they couldn't speak English, or they didn't understand enough English, you know. And the parents could follow---couldn't follow the discussion. so she just sent me. Gave me the particular problem, and describe it, and so I would go over and explain it. And it got to the point where the Japanese Issei community accepted that. INTERVIEWER: And how old were you? Approximately. Eighth grade. DOI: I was grades, began in grade sixth and went seventh, eighth. What the hell did I translate that to? INTERVIEWER: Teenage, teenager. DOI: Teen, yeah, okay. [46:00] INTERVIEWER: Wow. DOI: That's how I learned a lot of things. INTERVIEWER: I'll bet you did. DOI: Yeah. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 20 of 43 �INTERVIEWER: That's fascinating. And it's also preparation . . . DOI: And when I went to high school, 3,500 students, the senior year, I went through the same damn thing again, because I was the president, elected president of the Japanese Student Club, some 350 of us, huge, big class. I didn't want to have anything to do with these town kids. I'm a country boy. But the teachers and the several people came in, said "No, no, no, Jim, you've got to contribute. You've got to contribute what you can, you know, to the class." So, I drag myself out. But they taught me public speaking. The teacher, the head of the English department, stood me five yards away, ten yards away, 15 yards away, so I can pronounce, enunciate clearly. And I lost my Japanese accent. And I was the Valedictorian, addressing, giving the Valedictorian to 5,000 parents and all this. And, you know---see, I was, in many ways, helped by the teachers. That's why I have such a great respect for potentials of schools. What it did for me. INTERVIEWER: And I love that you ended up working in CIE. DOI: That's right. INTERVIEWER: It's synergy [indiscernible; simultaneous talking] . . . DOI: They---that's right, I hadn't thought of that. INTERVIEWER: Love that. DOI: That's why, yeah, you're right, CI and E was much like it. Yeah, I didn't know anything about what they were doing, but yet, nonetheless, there was a problem out there I found I could deal with it. INTERVIEWER: In the same role. DOI: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 21 of 43 �Yeah, same role. INTERVIEWER: You're the go-between, between the reforms and the Japanese people. DOI: Right, right. INTERVIEWER: And you're doing that since you were in sixth, seventh, eighth grade. DOI: Yes, I knew how to do it well. Because they would ask me, the Japanese asked to talk to me, you know. INTERVIEWER: That is amazing. And . . . [48:00] DOI: I hadn't thought of it that way. INTERVIEWER: I'm understanding that---and this is from other guys---in the Army, they don't necessarily go into your life history that deeply to know that that's a good matchup. Just kind of worked that way. DOI: Yeah, yeah. INTERVIEWER: The gods were smiling on you, Mr. Doi. DOI: Yeah, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Wow. DOI: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 22 of 43 �No, because others who've looked at---who would know my background, they'd say, You were lucky.” You know, the Nitta family, that's the family that adopted me, literally, okay. And none of them went to college. But they said that within a few months of---being seven---I was seven years old when I was there, they took me in. They said within a couple months, they said, “Hey, this kid's gonna go to college.” None of 'em went to college. But they were prepared to help me all the way, you know. INTERVIEWER: So I want to leap back into the purges, because that first major purge was to get rid of the military guys. DOI: Yes. INTERVIEWER: So you had witnessed that, and . . . DOI: Well, what do you mean military, get rid of the military? INTERVIEWER: Yeah, the Japanese military from the schools, [indiscernible; simultaneous talking] system. DOI: Oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, get rid of that. DOI: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: What other purges took place or what other dismissals that you know about? DOI: Well, the thing that we attempted to do, because we were forced into it---we, I mean the occupation forces, one of the things that the Japanese became really aware of, and it hurt me, guys like me were all felt badly, is that you quickly observe that the blacks, the black units were all stationed in Yokohama. They weren't stationed in Tokyo. They were basic part of the transportation [50:00] division, okay. And This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 23 of 43 �what made that difference so great was because on the border there were some popular dance halls, and the blacks held certain dance halls to be their property, and the whites who were nearby, this is our property. And they actually had fights. And the Japanese observing that and learning of it, says, “What's wrong, I thought you guys were democracies?” And we could never, never get rid of that perception, because it was true. You know? At the least I thought that MacArthur would appoint a couple of handsome blacks and put them, you know, in uniform and put 'em as his guard. They would say, “Oh yeah, those are great soldiers,” you know, must be. Okay? [Laughs.] But we were adapted in a sense, you know, by the military, okay? Once we got in there, we had no---very little trouble. But we were in specialized units, when I think of it, in the 100th and 4-4-2 and all that, okay? And it wasn't until after the war I think that we were really, truly, you know, accepted into the division. But the blacks, you know, that experience really sunk home. And they never forgot. INTERVIEWER: It sunk home to the African Americans or to the Japanese? DOI: No, the African Americans that say they were---we were talking of democracy, equality. Bingo, the black soldier [laughs]. Okay? He didn't eat with us. He didn't sleep with us. We were accepted. Okay? All right? So it shows you the same thing happened. The my first time I learned of the difference was when we were in camp in [52:00] Arkansas when we shipped over there. I guess I told you, after a couple of nights there, the workers came over and knocked on our door. They were all these southern types, you know. And they said they wanted to talk to the leaders. And we were just kids, but we said “Oh, what can we do for you?” you know. And they said, well, there were restrooms that were labeled Colored and the restrooms that were labeled, you know, White. They said, “Please, as far as we're concerned, you're white people.” [Laughs.] I mean, really, already, see, a distinction had been made I hadn't even thought of in California, because I think in the whole class of 3,500 students, I think there were only about half a dozen blacks. You know, just they were---there was a guy who was on the track team with me, you know, okay? And we were good buddies, but he was the only black that I ever knew. INTERVIEWER: Would you ever explain to Japanese citizens about your family being in a concentration camp back in the U.S.? They ever ask about that, how Japanese were doing? DOI: [Laughs.] We never, we never men---I can't recall that I ever mentioned it. INTERVIEWER: No kidding, no one ever asked you, how the Japanese in America are doing. No kidding, wow. DOI: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 24 of 43 �They might've, I think they asked later, you know, much after. But at the time that we were there, they were trying to understand us. INTERVIEWER: The Nisei. DOI: Yeah. And also, then they found out we were friendly, we were articulate, we were not anti-Japanese by any means, okay? But we were loyal to the U.S. How do you explain all that? INTERVIEWER: How do you explain that? DOI: Well, I don't know. I wondered to myself, how in the hell did I say loyal to the U.S., you know, when I lost everything as a kid out of Berkeley, you know, and I had no guarantee that I could restart my career, except, before I left there, and knowing that I was going---headed for universities, half-a-dozen of the [54:00] key officers in CI and E, you know, my division, they got together and they said, “Don't worry, we'll take care of your entry.” They wrote to and contacted Harvard, Chicago, and Stanford. And they got me in. I didn't have to send in any application. INTERVIEWER: How would you explain a Nisei soldier to a Japanese, even if you didn't do it at the time, how would you explain it? DOI: No, the way I would explain it is that we were born in Ameri---Japan---America. Because of that, we are Americans. Okay? And it's just, as Americans, in a military situation, we had to serve. Wouldn't you expect that for someone who was born in Japan, you know, conducting themselves like a citizen from the time he's child? Yeah, these odd things will occur. INTERVIEWER: We're right near the end of this tape, so we're gonna go ahead and stop, we'll switch out tapes and finish up. DOI: Pardon me? INTERVIEWER: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 25 of 43 �We'll---we're gonna stop for a minute, switch out tapes and . . . BEGINNING OF TAPE TWO DOI: Went steady two years in high school. INTERVIEWER: And what was, what was your wife's name again? DOI: Mary. INTERVIEWER: Mary. DOI: Very simple. INTERVIEWER: Mary, very nice. Speaking of women, education reform. DOI: Yes. INTERVIEWER: How did that change a woman's life in Japan? DOI: Massive. INTERVIEWER: No, really? DOI: Massive. Yes, I think that's one of the most important things that happened in that relationship. All this prejudice, forget it. But the women came out with another sense of pride in what they are, and that This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 26 of 43 �we're going to be treated better. Not necessarily equally, but better, you know. The men were---and the men understood, they were willing to listen. That's why they started electing women to the legislature, national legislature, you know. For a long while, proper women didn't even stick their noses, you know, in political matters. And we saw that happening. And the one group that were helpful, really, were the ordinary GIs when they made the men in crowded buses get off the seats and told the ladies to sit down, you know, especially when they had luggage. And the fellas were just ordinary corporals and, you know, and enlisted men. But they couldn't stand what was happening to the women, [laughs] what the Japanese were doing for the women. And that changed the---women to election; they are participants. INTERVIEWER: Did you get to see them vote at all? DOI: Pardon me? INTERVIEWER: Did you see the election take place, see women voting? DOI: At the time I was there, no. Because it was very early yet, it's the beginning of it, you know. But I knew it was happening. And one of the key politicians was named Doi, you know, but no relation. Too bad. INTERVIEWER: [Laughs.] DOI: I would have loved to have [02:00] voted for her. INTERVIEWER: In the Diet, if you were a relation. DOI: Yes, uh-huh. INTERVIEWER: You'd have been set. DOI: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 27 of 43 �That's right. So---and also the difference in the women, in their clothing and design and everything. INTERVIEWER: Really? How so? DOI: Well, the point is they're free. They don't get all tied up, you know, belts around them. And, you know, kind of waddling rather than walking straight, you know. They think of themselves as a free people. That's why now they do, they have come by themselves to study in American universities, women. Okay? Oh, I don't worry about equality in Japan. It's as far as you can go, and I'm just waiting for woman to be elected, you know, the head [laughs]. INTERVIEWER: Prime minister. DOI: Prime minister, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Wouldn't that be amazing. Yeah. That's kind of interesting, because while all this is happening, the decentralization of the educational system . . . DOI: Yeah, yeah. INTERVIEWER: . . . that the Americans are trying to impose and put in place, and through that democratization, kind of get these young kids thinking a certain way. So in future, they don't go fighting. But there's---I may mispronounce this, so please be forgiving of me, but the Monbusho. DOI: Monbusho. INTERVIEWER: Monbusho. DOI: Monbusho, not man but mon, M-O-N. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 28 of 43 �INTERVIEWER: Monbusho. Tell me about that. DOI: Yeah, well, Monbusho is the Ministry of Education. Simple as that. INTERVIEWER: And how did they feel about all this decentralization? DOI: Oh, I don't think it decentralized. I haven't looked at it recently, so I can't comment on it, I shouldn't comment on it. I haven't looked at it recently. But I will tell you this much, [04:00] though, I---see, when I was at Syracuse, for about ten years I was a consultant to the private university association of Japan. I used to go there periodically when they asked me to come. I was helping them come forth with a legitimate theory and also practice of correcting the Japanese system of---well, let me start---in Japan, private universities were and are prohibited from receiving gifts from private individuals and from corporations, which is something that Eisenhower was against, but not because of that. They felt that, you know, the private universities and the university, generally, if they accepted money, they would become tools of some group, you know, or individual. Which is what we worry about too. And so I had the data, and because, you know, and I knew what was happening in the U.S., and so they asked me to be a part of a committee in Japan, and to try to get the legislatures to make a choice, you know. One, free them from any interference or prohibition against receiving private gifts from corporations or individual. Or if not, then support the universities, private universities, [indiscernible]. In other words, if you're the controller and you want anything, then you say, “Okay, we'll do it. But the thing is you pay for part of our operation.” If that time they were only getting about 10 percent in different forms. And I say, “Go big, go for 50 percent.” And they did. [06:00] So the private universities in Japan are still private, but 50 percent of their operating costs are now or have been now for about, that's over 20 years now. That had nothing to do with the occupation of Japan, okay. This is just as an individual, I was invited along with the president of Syracuse University to help the Japanese deal with this problem of private, public, you know, giving and this and that and so forth. And so, I was still, in other words, I guess, useful to them. INTERVIEWER: Very, very. The educational reform, there's a---I read papers, I go online and I can download papers, actual papers that people wrote, they're either professors or it's part of their thesis work. And there's one interesting take on the educational reform that I read that I want to throw at you and see what you think. DOI: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 29 of 43 �Okay. INTERVIEWER: It was a saturation type of operation, intended to affect all aspects of Japanese culture with surviving consequences. DOI: Well, it's, to me that's all gobbledygook, but nonetheless, I think I know what they're getting at. It's to totally changed Japanese culture, not possible. I think we now put that aside as pure dreams. For God sakes. Because in many respects if you were to ask people, you know, who know a great deal about Japan, a great deal about America, says, “Which would you prefer to live in today?” Would you be so proud as to say, “Of course, in America.” We will say that, but the thing is to say that we were superior? For that reason. Superior economically, superior in terms of social services, superior in terms of helping parents raise children properly and all that shebang [08:00] to say we're better? Come on. I can tell you right now is that as far as being a teacher, at the elementary, secondary level, not necessarily the university, okay, but the---at the public school level, the Japanese are way ahead of us, much more efficient, much more effective. Far fewer problems. They have them, but they deal with them differently. INTERVIEWER: How do I measure the impact then of democratization through the educational forms in occupied Japan? What matrix can I use? DOI: Well, interesting the way they ask me that question [laughs]. I would say, even the Japanese would say, well done. They have an education system they're proud of. Remember the following now, in recent, last ten years, there was a marked shift in the Chinese and Burmese and Vietnamese, where they went to graduate school. They were coming, pouring into the U.S. Then they shifted over to pour into the Japanese universities. INTERVIEWER: Really. DOI: Yup. People have paid no attention to that fact. So why did they do that? Because, actually, Japanese understand Asian, Asian [skip in tape] [univ]ersities. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, they are. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 30 of 43 �DOI: Okay? All right. INTERVIEWER: There's also an issue . . . DOI: Oh, oh, incidentally I want to say, look at the number of Japanese scientists now who get, you know, designated for what is that thing? INTERVIEWER: Nobel Prize. DOI: Nobel Prize. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, absolutely. DOI: They're right there. Okay? And that's a mark of great universities. INTERVIEWER: I always thought as a side note . . . DOI: Okay, anyway. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. We won't go there, we got limited time. Okay, there's some really interesting story you had about Todai that you were asked to be a student? [10:00] DOI: No, they proposed the idea, not me but my superiors, because they were concerned about what shall we do when Jim goes, you know. And the---so they thought, “Well, Jim wants to get back to school. Maybe can get him back to school here at Todai.” And they wouldn't consider any lesser institution. Like saying Harvard or nothing, okay? [Laughs.] And Todai was number one, okay. But then, I didn't even examine all the doubts because I simply said, “Well, before you people go any farther, be sure to This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 31 of 43 �ask the students.” Several of the classes, what do you think of having a Nisei, you know, former soldier, now a member of SCAP, as a fellow student coming in here? And ask them. And the answer came back pretty clearly. “Well, it's okay except that, you know, we feel like we're being spied upon, that he's a spy. We can't talk freely.” And they were damn right. Yeah, I mean, I'd be a very unusual guy if I didn't report or say something about the things that I'm seeing, observing, you see. So, I thought that made good sense. And so I said, “Forget it. I'm going back to the U.S. I'm going home.” [Laughs.] And yet, let me tell you, home wasn't all that great, when I finished. I was elected Phi Beta Kappa in Chicago, even though I didn't give a damn, I didn't even buy a gold pin. They just voted me. And then the thing is, I had a major fellowship, graduate fellowship and so forth, I did everything in 48 months, [12:00] okay? It's like a record, practically. I challenged the courses, okay. Now, but the, what was it. What was it? I'm sorry. INTERVIEWER: No problem, you were talking about, oh shoot, now I blanked. DOI: [Laughs.] INTERVIEWER: Oh, you were talking about, you remember? DOI: Oh, yeah, I tell you, okay, all right. And then the thing is the professors thought that, you know, I get a cinch to get a position somewhere, okay. But mostly, they were looking at liberal arts colleges. And I got no liberal. They didn't care for me. They saw on the paper and they said, “Oh, they wondered,” he says, “is he Japanese background?” you know. And they didn't say because of the war and all that, they simply said, “Does he speak any English? How's his English? Is it adequate? And they wouldn't even find---they were at that time, there was no such thing as a Bill of Rights to students. You know, you gotta get---if you're gonna get turned down, you better have some good explanation why you turn down somebody. None of that in those days. So, fall was arriving, and hell I was out of money then, because I had paid for up to that point, and I still had some money left, but not a lot. And I was married [laughs]. But she was a help. But the thing is is that---so I said, “What am I gonna do?” And then they were shaking their heads, you know, they were real upset. And we asked Ford Foundation, they put a lot of pressure on the Ford Foundation to try to support me to go back [14:00] to Japan and spend a couple years studying post-occupation Japan. Same thing, some of the questions you asked. But the Ford Foundation wasn't interested, see, yeah. All right, so what the hell happened? Well, it so happened that at that moment, Chicago was having a little bit of a financial problem. And they had momentarily refused to rehire a assistant professor in a field that was close to what I would be doing, study of universities and colleges, you know. And then the thing is is that, in the meantime, the governor of State of Washington, er, State of New Mexico had crossed out the appointment of an assistant This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 32 of 43 �chancellor of the higher education. We were just established, you know, the first budget, didn't get it through. And the board over there acted up and they finally---came about October. Chicago changed its mind and renewed the contract for the assistant professor. In the meantime, the governor changed his mind and again approved the appointment of an assistant chancellor. And Professor Russell, John Dill Russell, who was a former dean at Chicago, and taken on this challenge, it was to bring together the colleges and universities of a given state, and let them work cooperatively and deal with it from the same set of data, same criteria. Instead of exerting all your political power [laughs] to get the most money, okay. And so---but he didn't---he had the money now, but he didn't have anywhere to turn to, because they were---experienced ones had all taken jobs already. [16:00] And they happened to drop by Chicago, and they talked about this unusual guy, Jim Doi, you know. And we made a meeting. It was Monday or Tuesday. It was Tuesday morning, yeah, a Tuesday morning. I saw him at the Chicago office, and he says, "What can you tell me about your experience, you know, in higher education?" I said, "Very little, sir." "Did you take a course in higher education here offered by so-and-so?" "No sir." "What do you think of yourself?" "Well, I think I'm primarily a sociologist and culture anthropologist, but also I'm very much interested, you know, in the impact that universities generally make, you see, and the changes that should take place or can take place." And then he says, "Well, oh yeah, what else can you do?" "Well, I'm told that I write pretty well." He said, "Yeah, that's what they tell me. Now, when can you join me if I were to offer you a job?" I said, “Well, I would say yes. I don't know anything about Santa Fe or New Mexico. But I do know one thing about New Mexico,” I said, “they took a hell of a beating in the Bataan March. Okay? [Laughs.] It all comes together in some. And I said, “Well, I think we can overcome that.” He says, “If you can . . .” “I can be there Monday.” This was, you know, Tuesday. And he says, “All right. I'm telling you that the State of New Mexico does not provide for moving expenses of new people.” “Never mind, you give me the job . . .” “All right, this is in the contract: For one year, the remainder of this year, I put you on an hourly basis. But it will add up, you know, to a decent amount. And then we will review it, and if I do not renew it, then the thing is I will definitely find you an equivalent job.” [18:00] I said, “fine.” He had that kind of, you know, influence. Well, within two months getting there, I was considered a miracle man. I could pump out data and analysis and models [laughs] faster than you could breathe. INTERVIEWER: Which is something I understand you were doing in occupation as well, right? DOI: That's right. Some similar to it. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, similar, yeah. DOI: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 33 of 43 �It's the same thing I had learned, you know. And I quickly became somebody that---they never had a Japanese American or Chinese American employed in the state system, you see. And so there was a professor or two of Japanese background at the University of New Mexico, you know. But that wasn't where I was going. Anyway, all Hispanics, and right away, they said, "Hey, we can talk to this guy." You see, Russell was a right-wing Christian. And everything begins and ends with the Bible [laughs]. And he was--- and et cetera. But he was---however, knew his stuff, and was very good. And he taught me, see, there's something about universities that no one else could've taught me. And overnight, I became famous nationally within---with---we had some meetings around the data that I had worked out with him and so on and so forth, and they called meetings. And next thing, you know, my name was being flashed across the country. Hey, we want to do this, who's that guy with, with Russell? Doi? What kind of name is that? [Laughs.] INTERVIEWER: [Laughs.] DOI: And they just completely forgot then, and I got offers from Michigan State, and I got offers from Iowa, and I got offers from Michigan, you know. INTERVIEWER: What was the program that they wanted you to work on? DOI: To create a program. INTERVIEWER: Oh, okay, okay. DOI: Of maintaining an analysis and data for exchange, [20:00] and that can be used by both the legislature and the institutions, working together. INTERVIEWER: Wow. DOI: So I will be in a central office---for example, when I took the job at Colorado, 40 percent of my salary was being paid, they agreed to pay. The other institution, other than Colorado, you know, Colorado took care of 60 percent, and the other, Colorado State, Western, and so forth, all kicked in. And that This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 34 of 43 �meant that the president worked together, we're working on budgetary problems. And I would be the leader in that, in terms of the analysis that I would make and interpretation. And the legislature. And then at the same time, the states came to an agreement that established what they call regional organization. Very similar to what I was doing at the state level, but I became the model that they used to develop the state level, you see. And then later on, Florida, the southern states did, and they wanted me to be involved, and I was advisor to them. And New England did the same thing with the public institutions. And I was advisor to them, you know. INTERVIEWER: Who knew that your experience in occupation would lead you down this path? DOI: They didn't pay a damn thing. They didn't even mention it. INTERVIEWER: Hey, why did you decide to write your thesis paper on the acceptance and rejection of educational system by---or educational reform by Japanese during occupation? DOI: What led me to it? INTERVIEWER: Yeah. DOI: Basically it's what I was doing. INTERVIEWER: Oh, okay. DOI: Particularly on the school board. That was a real hot item. INTERVIEWER: Oh, okay. DOI: And also, co-education, you know, is a other one. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 35 of 43 �INTERVIEWER: Right. DOI: All right. But the thing is they were---that school board, and the question of the role of laymen versus [22:00] professional educators in determining policies, et cetera. You see, ours was a totally different from most European states. Their state of operating, you know, national, all right. And---but the U.S. has a very proud of what I think is a sloppy system. And I hate it when I see an idiot school board member really sit on some group of teachers who are working their butts off, you know, and calling for their firing?. I mean, you know, that happens all the time. That's the reason why two-thirds of the best students graduating from teacher education, quit after two years, two-to-three in this country. That is a statistic that most people don't know. They should know. Why the bright ones leave teaching so early in their careers, the better ones. Because the system is so damn intolerant, you know, of any variation from what they call a popular norm. A genius who's a schoolteacher, come on, you know, that's the reason why I've never taught school, public school. Lower grade, I've never taught, even though I comment on it, and consider the organization and what's happening to it, okay. Largely because it came very early in my life to understand, that wasn't for me. The idea was universities. Endlessly, if you will. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, but that's great, what you were able to call it. DOI: Okay. INTERVIEWER: [Addressing the crew.] So, does anybody have any questions? Yeah. CREW MEMBER: [Indiscernible; off mike.] INTERVIEWER: We're asking about shushin and the . . . DOI: What? INTERVIEWER: Shushin. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 36 of 43 �DOI: Sushin? Ah, shushin, okay. INTERVIEWER: Oh, I said it wrong. DOI: Okay, no, it's all right, [24:00] no, shushin. Okay, it's been a long, long time since I---but still it runs through, I still think it exists, although not as blatant, not as open, and not as obvious. But that is a moral fiber of the---of Japan, of things Japanese, shushin. Okay? The moral fiber. Just as Christianity is the moral fiber of the U.S. of A. Come on, you can't tell me there isn't a Christian bias on everything we do, okay? [Laughs.] But I don't object to it, just have to understand that was spiritual. And still there. Otherwise, kendo would have disappeared long ago. You know. I got a guy who graduated high school a year behind me. He now lives with me in the same place, you know. And he still talks about it. [Speaks Japanese], you know, shushin. And it runs into my shodo calligraphy. Chikara, put yourself in it, your strength, that's what you have to show. None of this namby-pamby stuff. He wants me to take that brush and go, [makes slicing noise] you know, okay? And the same thing with kendo, judo. The martial arts, they still prosper in Japan. And every boy who grows up whose normal is expected you know. And that's the way they treat their teams, athletic teams. This shushin, you hear them talk, shushin. [Speaks Japanese], my spirit. Even I get that way once in a while [laughs]. Because I consider myself, at heart, still a Japanese too, large part, okay. INTERVIEWER: Oh sure. DOI: All right. [26:00] Does that answer your question sir? Shushin? CREW MEMBER: Actually, what I was curious is, how you guys dealt with it in educational reform? DOI: In education reform, we never talked about it that I know, seriously. INTERVIEWER: Oh, okay. DOI: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 37 of 43 �It, undergirded, you know, their thinking. I don't think enough Americans were there, with an there average age, you know, 25 to 30, that range, military men, that ever really seriously understood what shushin meant. Okay. INTERVIEWER: We had talked about voting, the voting, and that was before you got there. So you didn't see it. But did you get an opportunity to hear or read what the Japanese society thought of women voting, the men? DOI: Yes, it was a lot of stuff. It was widely discussed. INTERVIEWER: What did they think? DOI: Well, it's so varied---is that they were---it was---they were pro, pro and con, both women and . . . It wasn't 100 percent women, okay. I forgot what percent, but that---it clearly was a dominant force and leaders spoke, and men who spoke on both sides, you know, and so on. And---but, however, the thing is that, what I watched for was is that, what I call the reality. How many women had moved into higher education in a major universities which are predominantly---hardly a woman ever went to Todai, et cetera. Now they're there. Now they're Keio, Waseda, you know. That's what you look at. Never mind there's all this---as long as you send the women are going to the best universities, and the number is increasing. Okay, forget all this other stuff, okay. [28:00] That's reality. And they're there. And the graduates are gonna change the world. Okay? INTERVIEWER: Oh, yes. DOI: Don't you agree with me on that? INTERVIEWER: Education is the way, absolutely. DOI: And you educate the women, the same effect you educate the men. INTERVIEWER: That's right. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 38 of 43 �DOI: You don't educate the men, you're not gonna educate your women either, okay. INTERVIEWER: No. It all hinges on that. And one of the things that always interests me is, at the outset of occupation, the wreckage, the sheer wreckage that war does to a country, and there you are, and you're trying to prop up, in the beginning, trying to prop up an educational reform. DOI: Yup. INTERVIEWER: Certain steps are taken, but it---I get the feeling it's almost like when you went to that train station and saw the little kids come out to give them candy, there's only so much you can do. DOI: Yup. INTERVIEWER: Things take time to take hold and cement. And then they're debated and pushed away and pulled back in and all. So I'm kind of looking for a long-term analysis of the effect of education reform on occupation Japan. How do I approach that? What can I think about that? DOI: I don't know, I don't know. I tell you why. Because I hadn't, I don't think I got to that point. You've gone beyond me, in terms of questions you're raising. INTERVIEWER: Oh. I don't think so [laughter]. DOI: No, I don't think I've ever dealt with that perspective, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Having worked in it, and what I love about what you did was that you weren't sitting in some office in the NYK Building or Dai-Ichi Building or whatever the hell, and looking over reports and signing things, oh yeah, do this, do that, go out. You were there, hands-on. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 39 of 43 �DOI: Yeah, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Working, working. So the spirit, [30:00] that's one thing I've been learning, too, about Japanese culture, is oftentimes people will talk about the spirit of something. I talked about this in the spirit of friendship, I talk about . . . DOI: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: What was the spirit at the time when you were back in occupation to embrace educational reform, to move forward, and as the occupation was trying to direct them? DOI: Well, I don't think much happened the first year, except that we brought in from the outside, the biggest item was we brought in a group of highly-touted educators as a special council commissioned to advise MacArthur, I mean, you know, talk to the big chief. And then talk to the members of the education division. Okay? At first it was almost all this talk, and trying to get involvement and understanding in the U.S.. That segment isn't huge, we found, you know, but nonetheless, the idea is, see, I think there's a problem that government at that time faced, you know, was that how do you sell the idea to the American public, occupation as a whole. How much money are we spending? Where else do we want to spend money? What are the needs, you know, we can only---but to rebuild Japan? Are you crazy? you know. Do you follow me? INTERVIEWER: Oh yeah. DOI: All that stuff came out, and I'll be perfectly honest with you, I never thought to sit back and try to figure it out [laughs]. All I could do is think of what was happening in the area called education, and even that was quite complex. Okay? The---one of the criticism that made by---and this is during that period, shortly---I think about six months to a year after, [32:00] is that why are we---how many of the firstraters in America, education system, whatever it is, teaching mathematics, social studies, philosophy of education, et cetera, what are the top hands in the U.S.? What are they---are they involved? We establish that council to advise, just, you know, about a dozen people, all right. But beyond that, there was no indication of overall commitment on the part of the American Association of Teachers, American association of this and that, so forth, you know. I think they---as far as I can see, like we didn't---we This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 40 of 43 �never existed. It was not big news after the war had ended. The---do you recall any newspaper article, big splash about the education reform in Japan? INTERVIEWER: No. DOI: It was done quietly, it was the very nature. Because I had to ask a lot of questions about what happened in Germany. See, I'm one of the very few guys that made a comparison of the two; I knew the directors of both. By that time, by the time I was at Chicago, you know, the director, man who directed higher education reform in Germany, and he knew of me and we talked several times, you know. And that was a totally different field. That was Hitler and Nazism. INTERVIEWER: Years later, there's a gentleman, his name slips my mind, but he's a sociologist, Ph.D., taught, the whole thing, and he wrote a book called “The Derelicts of Company K.” You ever hear of that? DOI: [Laughs.] Sounds like for the Hawaiian soldiers, but I don't know. I don't know. What was that about, seriously, I don't recall. INTERVIEWER: It was about a group of Nisei who basically goofed off in Military [34:00] Intelligence Language School, and then when they were sent to Japan, they goofed off some more, and then they did some not so good things to the Japanese people. DOI: I don't recall that. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Just checking to see---hear---see . . . DOI: I would have kicked their asses, but nonetheless [laughs]. INTERVIEWER: Why would you say, that why kick their asses? DOI: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 41 of 43 �Well, because that was---the idea was when you commit yourself---first of all, you have to respect the following: The Japanese were not an unintelligible creature, okay, they were not, they did not have a long history of criminality, of discord, you know. Actually, if that's the one thing they were famous for is the commitment and the sense of commitment they had to anything: They will succeed, carry it out. But the war they did lose, okay? But the thing is, but they turned again once they were---the ship was again righted, corrected in our case, is that they blossomed again. They brought themselves together, to a point where until Toyota fell flat [laughs], is the best universities and colleges, best, you know, automobiles, technology, okay. In other words, whatever it is, they recovered and went ahead of us in many respects. INTERVIEWER: When you talk about the recovery and the success of it, you talked about the Japanese people themselves. DOI: Well, I like to think of it that way. It's not easy, because Japan still a lot of regionalism existing, but it's a shadow now than it used to be. In other words, people think that Japan just had one language. It did not. I learned to speak Hiroshima Japanese when I was a little kid [laughs]. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. We are right near the end. We gotta cut you loose. DOI: Okay, thank you. INTERVIEWER: I want to thank you very much once again. Wow. [36:00] You are terrific. DOI: Well, I appreciate it. And I hope I don't have to speak to this at all, because the thing is, I'm really focusing upon, like, I'm working on my last will and testament. And I find is that I myself have very little to want, and I just want to make sure that every relative I have that's worth sending to college will get to college. INTERVIEWER: That's a good, that's good. And you have to work on your pool game. DOI: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 42 of 43 �[Laughs.] Well, no, I'm teaching them. They're just, “Oh! Teacher.” What happened is just purely accidental, you know, here's Mary picking up the cue, and I said, “Now, wait a minute, lower your hand,” I said, you know, “Now, wait a minute now, you got too much space between your two areas. Now go.” She goes, bing, “Aah, it went! The first ball!” INTERVIEWER: [Laughs.] DOI: She thinks I'm a miracle person, okay [laughs]. INTERVIEWER: Well, you know, Doc, in some ways you are. You did some good in this life. You did some good. DOI: Well, I tried, I tried, you know, yeah. Okay, thank you, good luck to you folks. INTERVIEWER: Thank you. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 43 of 43 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Isao James Doi oral history interview, October 20, 2010 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Isao James Doi oral history interview transcript [full interview], October 20, 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doi, Isao: narrator Hawkins, Richard: interviewer Go For Broke National Education Center: publisher US Army Center of Military History: sponsor Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcriptions Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Extent The size or duration of the resource. 43 pages, typescript Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-10-20 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Seattle, Washington Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Go For Broke National Education Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2010OH1026A_T_Doi https://ndajams.omeka.net/files/original/8a0c74570273d4ac4632a8a9d84e5e8d.pdf c485674274618a5de36e7df289d337af PDF Text Text Go For Broke National Education Center Oral History Project Oral History Interview with Isao James Doi, October 19, 2010, Seattle, Washington INTERVIEWER: Okay, it is October 19th, 2010. We are in Seattle, Washington. Lisa Sueki is on sound and catalogue, Steve Itano Wasserman is on camera, Richard is chatting. And we are here with Mr. Jim Doi. Thank you very much for coming. If you would just please say your name and where and when you were born. DOI: My name, informally, is Jim Doi. Okay, whether it's James or Jim, makes no difference to me. My real birth, name of birth is Isao, I-S-A-O, which translated into Japanese means honorable. And my parents, I think, foresaw my future. Like hell they did, but nonetheless . . . [Laughter.] Because they were divorced by the time I was four. INTERVIEWER: Shhh. DOI: But anyway, I was brought up by cousins. INTERVIEWER: Okay. DOI: Now, I was born in a place called Racetrack [ph] which is a suburb, agricultural suburb, of Stockton, California, and where you people probably heard of Stockton was when we were evacuated. Stockton and Lodi constituted one of the major centers for the evacuees, all right. And we were housed first for about four, five months in the horse stalls and the---which were very convenient to house a small family, if you can ignore the smell and so forth. But those things you forget. I grew up on a farm that was right next to the center and the fairground. And I used to crawl under the fences during the fair season, rather than to pay the 25 cents entry fee. But to suddenly find myself on the opposite side of the fence, [laughs] there's a certain irony to that, you know [laughs]. And because I had just finished high school, graduated high school, I served on the [00:02:00] camp newspaper. We put it together with a gentleman named Barry Saiki, who I think is a name you're familiar with. And he was---had just finished Berkeley, and I had just been admitted to Berkeley, I mean, ready to go and take my trip. I spent the fall of 1941---when was the date of the war, '48? INTERVIEWER: The war began in December 7th, 1941. Internment was February 19th with Executive Order 9066. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 1 of 22 �DOI: Thank you, see those days I forget . . . INTERVIEWER: You don't need to know that. Yeah. DOI: Refresh for me. But anyway, as a member of the staff, I was sent early, I volunteered, 250 was put on that old freight-train-like creature that crossed from Southern California into Nevada and into Arkansas. We had no idea where we were headed. And it was about a camp that had just been put up, or not quite finished yet, about ten miles west of the Mississippi River, okay. Later on, we learned to appreciate all the acreage there, because one of the first things that the population did was turn to what they've always---many of them had done all their lives: first-rate farmers. And they turned ten acres, 20 acres into, you know, a beautiful, you might say, source of fresh vegetables. But you did have to look out for such simple things as rattlesnakes, water moccasins, and copperhead, those three being the common poisonous snakes, which [laughs] none of us knew anything about living in California. By the time we got to that stage in California, it was rare to encounter a rattlesnake, you know. [00:04:00] Although they were there. But anyway, as I rode back---and this is kind of interesting experience, of course, we were first---this was the first exposure to people who were not directly involved in the, you might say, the acting upon the deprivation of our rights, you know, okay? And we would play pennyante poker, just kids, actually, I was, what, 19 then, yeah. And there was a knock on the door, and six, five or six burly guys, white, southern whites who were working to finish the camp---they were nothing but huts, really---and they had their hats off, and they said, “We understand that the leaders are here of your group.” And we're just 19-year-old kids, we looked [at each other], “Well, yes, what can we do for you?” And he said, “We noted that we have toilets marked Colored and we have toilets marked Whites. Now we folks noticed that you have been using both. Now we want you to know, as far as we're concerned, you are whites. Please use the restroom, you know, for Whites. Do not use the one marked Colored." And we said, "Yes, thank you very much for your information." And we looked at each other and said, “What the hell kind of country is this,” you know? [Laughs.] That was, really, that was the first exposure to people who had never worked with Japanese Americans, you see. And for them, they weren't at all concerned that we were considered to be potential enemies of the U.S., possibly, but I don't know they quite used those terms. And yet these people wanted us to---they---we---they identified with us and they wanted us [00:06:00] identifying with them, not this unquote-unquote this--these black creatures, colored, you know, use the term. And this was the first introduction to blacks, because in a high school of 3,500, you know, in Stockton, California, as I recall, there were only about five or six blacks in that whole city. You know, it was not yet taken over by the wave of blacks that moved during the war and shortly thereafter into California westward, then many went eastward, too, you know. And suddenly, it was a whole new experience for us. Yes. INTERVIEWER: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 2 of 22 �From the time that you had that experience to getting to occupied Japan, only because you have limited time, if we could move forward--DOI: Oh yes, no problem, no problem. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. DOI: So, what happened was then is that I---there was this Quaker group that was sponsoring scholarships to Japanese Americans. So we couldn't go to any major institution because they had military programs, but the liberal arts colleges were open, and they were very generous and I got a minor scholarship from the Quaker group, see. And to this day, I have contributed to Quaker efforts [laughs]. But, and we surprised them in terms of, the first thing they said---we went---every Sunday afternoon I accompanied the student ministers, who were exempt from induction to the armed forces. And first they just cold look at---these are all farmers, generally farmers, small-town people. And it's Protestant churches. And they just looked at us, and looked at us, you know. And after---we were then introduced, and I spoke, and their eyes like, "You mean---wait a minute, [00:08:00] you're American citizens! You were born in America, how could this have happened! Aaah!" you know, they were just stunned. They were absolutely stunned. You know, we were not only that, we were just kids. And we didn't even have any political view of any kind, you know, in those days it wasn't all that popular for young people to have political views. Well, anyway, from there I was inducted into the armed forces. I had a year of college and then armed forces, and I had specialized in college a stu---very good student of German, French, Spanish, and Italian and Portuguese. I could read those damn things. I was a first-rate scholar of Latin from days of high school, okay. So they'd pay no attention to the fact that a Japanese was one of the weakest language [laughs] for my mastery. And I had hoped that it would---I would get join go Europe, because, you know, I wanted to extend, expand on my understanding of the language. But then they sent me to Japan along with many others from Hawaii. There, for the first time, I had met Hawaiian Japanese. Totally different breed of cat. To be perfectly honest, I never thought that Japanese Americans of that openness and that joyfulness that they had, you see. But they were sent into camps, and they were not the minority. They were the majority of Hawaii. So they didn't know how to act like a minority. And they astonished me, these people, is that when we went downtown, you know, during the weekend, we were able to go into town as soldiers, and these Hawaiian kids whistle at the women, white women, you know, and then suggest bedding together. And we look, “What in the hell kind of guys are these?” Never met anybody who acted that way. [00:10:00] It was cultures joined and . . . But I learned a lot from them. And they were, they were, when it came time to study and serious, they were very good. We behaved ourselves. My brother-in-law was named out of 2,500 students completing the program, up until June of the following year, '47 was it? I can't remember the dates. INTERVIEWER: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 3 of 22 �That's okay. DOI: So you have to fill those in. INTERVIEWER: I will. DOI: Okay. Is that he was designated as the best soldier and the best scholar, yeah. And, well, he was important to me because I decided to marry my wife, and we talked about it, she was in Muskingum College, and I was in . . . So I persuaded her to marry me. But I didn't have the money to buy the ring, engagement ring. So I turned to my good friend, my brother [laughs]---became my brother-in-law, that is. The best scholar and so forth, and he had saved some money, and so I borrowed his money and bought the ring, and it's one of the family jokes, you know. Actually, one of the things that I observed later, I understand that some of the women, Japanese American women, were allowed into the program, but there were very few. It focused upon men. That's one mistake that the military made. Japanese women, the Nisei, like my wife, they were superb speakers of Japanese. They learned. The fellas didn't give a damn, you know. I was more interested in baseball and this and that and so forth. You know, I was a good worker on the ranch, but---and I picked up Spanish as a kid, because we were beginning to turn over and hire Mexicans for different kinds of crops we were dealing with. And the first thing I learned was andale, andale, you know, hurry up, hurry up, okay, yeah. And the experience we had as students, [00:12:00] I think, gave me a chance to get to know these Hawaiian Japanese. Otherwise, I would never have gotten to know them. And I can understand these guys that made such heroes of themselves, because, boy, they're gutsy. Yeah, I can see, you know, the 4-4-2 and plus the 100th. And I got to know Senator Inouye after his, you know, years later. And those guys had a special lack of, I would say, concern for their safety [laughs]. INTERVIEWER: [Laughs.] That's an understatement. DOI: Yeah. Well anyway, so I---when we finished, we shipped off to the Philippines. And by that time, when we got to the Philippines, the war had just ended. I think we were about midway across the South Pacific heading towards Philippines from San Pedro Harbor in California. And we were a mixed group by then, there were from Hawaii bunch and our, you know, the mainland bunch. We identified each other by that among ourselves, but made no difference where we were assigned, you know, and et cetera. And one of the things that astonished me was, I just noticed it the other day, I was a damn good shot. Because I used to, you know, I was given a rifle when I was a kid, to take care of coyotes and rabbits. And I got to---well, the gist of it is I was classified expert in military terms. That means, you know, I think This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 4 of 22 �I was the second best shot in the accuracy in over 2,000 of the soldiers that was working. And I thought, “Well, gee, you know I don't mind going to Europe and serve.” Well one of the first thing they did, they never gave us any bullets in the Philippines. [Laughs.] Can you believe that? We had to carry the guns, but we were given [00:14:00] no shells. And we---I asked some of the officers, and they said, “Oh, that's interesting. Well, it's for your good.” “What the hell do you mean for our good?” Well, I think it was their concern that, if we got captured, you know, by a Filipino unit, as we were doing our work, yeah, okay, is that if we had guns, they would be---we were suspect. They might shoot first and then ask questions later, which was not uncommon in those days, okay. And---but we did our best and we, well, basically I did---our group, the war had just ended; therefore, our main job was to persuade the Japanese soldiers to come out of the jungle. And then all we wanted to do was get the name, rank, and serial number and origin. Because we wanted to ship them back home. They didn't understand that. The Japanese didn't understand that. So we had to figure out ways to get them to talk. And one of the things that---I was one of those who came up with this idea, it was very effective, in which we say, “Yeah, tell me, now you're not gonna tell us your ken, your prefecture, your rank, your name, your family. So let me ask you something, how are you gonna get back to Japan?” you know. And as I . . . INTERVIEWER: Can I interrupt you for just one sec? DOI: Sure. INTERVIEWER: The Italian that you learned when you were a child is coming out in your hands and you're touching your mike. DOI: Oh really? INTERVIEWER: And if you'd be so good as to not touch your mike, that would be great. DOI: Thank you, thank you. INTERVIEWER: I love the Italian in you, though. I love it. DOI: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 5 of 22 �[Laughs.] Yeah, well, I grew up with Italian farmers. INTERVIEWER: I know, that's why I'm saying. DOI: It was a way of communicating which I was not aware of, okay. INTERVIEWER: Absolutely, you're wonderful. But anyway, so [indiscernible; simultaneous talking]. DOI: But, okay, fine. But anyway, so we said [00:16:00] to them, “Well, tell me,” I said, “we want to send you back. But if you don't want to go back, let me ask you a simple question: do you have, you know, you have a wife and you have children, now who's gonna sleep with your wife?” Boom! [Laughs.] They changed. They want to come back in the next day and tell all. Okay? Now you have to use your head, you know. It's not just a matter of turning people around with a gun at their head. We just said, “Well, who's gonna sleep with your wife if you don't go home?” [Laughs.] Or raise your kids and so on, you know. That, then they turn into real human beings, okay. Because we were so keyed to war, and it's that, you know, like---well, anyway, I belonged to a little group, that we saw this and there was a behavior, a behavior quite different between the Hawaiian Niseis and the American-born, U.S.-born Niseis, is in the way we related to even the Filipinos. These people had more experience with Filipinos than we did, because there were, you know, on the so-called, what did they call them, ranches and . . . INTERVIEWER: Plantations. DOI: Plantations. They had, you know, quite a few Filipinos. Whereas in the U.S. mainland, we were just beginning to get some, okay. But the thing is is that---and they went out from the camp that we were there, before they left the Philippines, they were dating Filipino girls. And whereas our bunch didn't. I was part of a little group that got together and said, “Hey, fellas, there's one thing, you know, you're free, the girls are cute,” and so forth. “But the last thing in the world that I want to know is that [00:18:00] I left a child behind that I couldn't raise.” That kind of guided us, even when we got to Japan, you know, okay. And so nobody told us to behave in that manner, okay. But I, among others, thought about it. By then I was married too. INTERVIEWER: Now, were you the norm or were you the exception? This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 6 of 22 �DOI: I don't know what the hell I was. I never thought that way. You know, basically, as far as the military's concerned, you know, they appreciate---they assign me a very interesting assignment. I was assigned to the education division. My job was I was the lone linguist, official linguist, in the whole education division. We had about 50 to 60 officers, almost all of them captain and senior majors and colonels, and they were all had graduate degrees. Many of them were professors, superintendant of schools. You know, but they had the rank. And I was the only---oh, there was a Shiroma, but he had stepped out of the uniform and was---became a civilian, war department civilian, which I later did, you know, because I needed the bucks to get back to college. I had to make some money. And they offered me a salary equivalent of a first lieutenant, you know. And my brother, who was the one that was a fine scholar and more serious, he got assigned to the edu[cation]---economic division. And he got the rank equivalent to a captain, you know. Now they offered us a lieutenancy. But I said, “The hell with it, I'm not gonna be, make enough money as a lieutenant,” you see. And I got talked into staying there and then renegotiated. I got the rank equivalent pf a first lieutenant. [00:20:00] And then civilian ranks are totally different. It's the pay that you get, you see. And so my wife just finished college herself, and she joined us, and she was immediately offered a job in the economics division, although she didn't know anything about economics, but she was a superb linguist, you know. Her Japanese, to the last day of her life was superior to mine [laughs]. Well, firstly because her father was one of the early graduates of Japan new high schools. And relatively speaking, to the first generation, they were well-educated, see. But the occupation of Japan was such that it took a while to just get used to the---well, let me put it this way, my mother, after the divorce, I had never heard from her. I don't think she was allowed to hear from me. I never saw my mother or had any correspondence with her from the time I was four years old, then she went back to Japan. I was raised by cousins as I said. But the thing is, I got permission to go look for my mother, from the military and the British. The British and the Australian controlled southern Japan. And I got permission to get on---to go to Hiroshima City. And they let me on, you know. And then the American side gave me a sack---permission to carry a sack full of goodies, you know, with me. And I got there, and then the Japanese, [speaks Japanese]---don't go, don't go, you're not gonna find anything there. But I who had suffered the loss of my mother from the time I was four, nobody's gonna stop me, you know, and if there's any chance at all of helping her in some way. [00:22:00] And when I got there and I saw what the area . . . [Laughs.] It was flat, Hiroshima was . . They just had the one big building, the shell of that building, appeared in a lot of photographs later. And then I took that sack of goodies and I had the address of a cousin and knocked on the door, and they came out---a woman came out. She looked frightened, she was shaking as she talked to me. And I gave her the letter from my father, you know, so forth, relative. And I gave her the goodies, and she would run back inside the main room where there---there were three or four men there. And I could hear the noises, talking. They never once invited me in. They never once served me tea, which is totally inappropriate for Japanese behavior, especially when I gave them a letter from a close ancestor. We're relatives. And I thought about it, and I asked my colleagues, the Japanese, when I got back to Tokyo, “What the hell here?” “What was happening?” I said, “Their behavior was totally different.” “Oh, they couldn't believe that a Nisei, one of them, would all show up in a Japanese uniform---I mean, American uniform.” That was This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 7 of 22 �unthinkable. They didn't trust me. And that was one of the things we had to overcome: Are you for real? [Laughs.] Okay? And pretty soon---for example, you know the dance hall in Tokyo, a number of them sprung up, and we learned later that they had worked it out with the occupation forces, is that they were women who were asked to sacrifice their virginity. Okay, you've heard of that one, there was a technical name designated in that group. And there's been quite a few commentaries on that. But I remember is that when I walked in, [00:24:00] and I had five or six of my friends, we went to the dance hall. And the one reason why is because I was considered one of the better dancers and therefore, you know, they were a little embarrassed to be dancing if they didn't know the steps. So I went in there with them. And the first thing they said was the most foul dirty language you could possibly come, “You #@?!,” in English. That's what the American GI taught them [laughs] as conventional Jap---English. And we said, “Where in the world did they learn that language? Who taught it to them?” “Eh! Eh! Eh!” in other words, they were so embarrassed the girls, when they found out what they had been taught by these white GIs, and then they said first they won't talk to us. They thought we were kempeitai in hiding, wearing American uniforms. I don't blame them, you know, because we don't look any different. Same age, you know, a kempetai would be. Okay, I think the language would be different, but nonetheless, we're looking at each other's faces. It took awhile to get them to talk freely. And I was one of the major links, because . . . INTERVIEWER: Explain how you overcome that. Because you've outlined very well the mistrust and the apprehension, and faced with that, how do you overcome that? DOI: Well, to be perfectly honest, most of us, at least, I was a little more conscious of it, because I---my---I was a natural-born sociologist, you know, and I was aware of these things. I fully expected some of that. So from [00:26:00] the few books that I, you know, I had studied before becoming a GI. But the thing is that---so I asked to be the main linkage. I was the one that carried the confidential memos, and I would go---walk over to the Ministry of Education Building, which was near the Tokyo Hoso Kaikan that was we were on the top floor, you see. And I had a crew of six Japanese, well-educated, several of them had master's degrees, you know, from American universities. And they were my staff, because I couldn't read fast enough, because we had to go through the entire publication of the Ministry of Education used in the elementary, the secondary school, and teacher training institutions, is that we had to produce translations and also to designate clearly the words and concepts that we did not want taught in the schools. Okay. And I'm sorry I didn't know what you wanted, but I had one copy in print of what the--their kids have, probably about the third or fourth grade. They show them the three of them lined up, all had a fude, brush, okay. And then the thing is that the page, half the page was stricken out, with the things that MacArthur's staff believed should not be taught any further. [Laughs.] But the thing is, what, you know, what you realize is that kids being kids, they'd be all the more anxious to find out what was there [laughs], what they were supposed to unlearn or give up on, you know. But there were those This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 8 of 22 �strange ironies. But we worked our butt off, first of all, because MacArthur kept wanting change to take place so fast, [00:28:00] you know. And I was one of those that the American officers, I mean, former scholars back home, is that they would say, “Well, Jim, I think we better take this part off,” you know. And then I would immediately turn it over to the squad that had---who could trans[late]---take that, and then summarize and take it to the Ministry of Education, you know. So I was the go-between. And they trusted me and I trusted them, you know. INTERVIEWER: And these are Japanese nationals? DOI: Nationals, oh, they're nationals, okay. And I---all I had was, from a staff of some like 60, the only one that actually had been in uniform was Shiroma, who became a civilian status. And I was---I maintained my military status for a good year and a half or so, you know, more to get my four years in [laughs]. I'm very practical. The thing is is that the---when you got to the point where---this is something that I deeply remember and appreciate: None of us carried guns. We never carried guns. We turned our rifles in, and as far as enlisted men are concerned, they were not supposed to be carrying any weapon. The reason why I say that, because I know a friend of mine, well didn't, I didn't consider him a trustworthy friend, but he was something of a gambler and had a Hawaiian background, you know. And he used to carry along the Namba [Nambu], you know, the Japanese pistol. And everybody was trying to get a Namba [Nambu], okay. And I just said the heck with that, you know. And the thing is is that, the only one that was [00:30:00] formally assigned to carry guns were these military police. And they were the ones to---a whole squad kept close watch and involvement in Dai-Ichi Building, that's where MacArthur was. And my little wife, you know, used to enjoy walking up and down---because the economics division was located in MacArthur---same building as MacArthur was. She would go up, say, "I felt important," [laughs] she says, kidding me, you know. But the thing that struck me was that we did have fights on the streets, but, with Russian GIs. They would go down the street at night, and then, you know, the girls would come running to us, “Tasukeru! Tasukeru, States-san,” you know. They recognized that we weren't gonna rape them, we weren't that kind of people. But the Russians were. They would grab a couple gals and gang rape her in the alleys, okay? [Laughs.] And the thing is that---so some of us, in the evening, you know, I had a jeep assigned to me, so we would just cruise around, and if you hear some girl running up for help, you know, we would step out, okay? We didn't have weapons, but we--once we stepped out, we just told them to get the hell out of here, you know. I forgot what it was in Russian, but we learned it [laughs]. But anyway, the animosity was there. We just didn't like each other. We would trust, you know, ex-Japanese GI rather than one of those guys [laughs]. The Russians. And I think that just permeated the whole occupation of Japan, you know. Russia, [00:32:00] you don't trust those guys. Chinese, eh, you know, okay? And there was no---immediately they accepted the Koreans, even though the Korean reds were improper. I was---had to review their works as well. They were trying to compete on the school market, we thought that would be a way to democratize, you know, the publication of teaching material. But This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 9 of 22 �immediately it got notes from people that I work with in---on the Ministry of Education, he says, “Kore wa---this is written by a Communist group, you know, teacher's union.” And I said, “Thank you very much, we will go over it.” “Oh wow, this is pinko,” you know, and we'd buck that on. And then---but we couldn't say that communism was not a democracy, okay? It got classified---but first of all, don't forget now, Russia was our ally [laughs], technically speaking. All right? And so when you consider the conflict we face, you know, it's just like, “Hey, wait a minute,” you know, no one has said yet that Communism is not a democracy. Okay? And the animosity was something based on something quite different, I think. But the---what is it that I did? Oh yes, I had---I produced the translations, sent them on to MacArthur. Oh yeah, and they didn't want to act on openly or not authorizing the publication of these Communistinfiltrated textbooks. So instead, they gave this civilian, [who] now had some [00:34:00] status, named Doi, "Isn't he in charge of releasing the papers for publication?" You know, you have to have papers to publish textbooks you understand. And on one of my jobs was I visited, in entirety, the big, larger cities in Japan to see which of the education presses are still usable and how much effort it took. And that's when I was in Hiro[shima]---went back to Hiroshima amd this and that, Nagasaki. You know, Okinawa, et cetera. But the job was huge, but we did identify enough to get the publications out. But what I did was control the newspaper. With each publication I approved, I gave a certain---1,000 reams of paper. Now what happened? Peculiarly enough, every time I ran across something this publisher I knew [laughs] was by the Communist infiltrators in the teacher's union and others, you know. They suddenly ran out of paper. [Laughs.] And therefore is that no major officer responsibility had to act on. I was dealing with a very practical thing. “I'm sorry folks, we just ran out of paper,” you know, the last batch we approved.” And the---also the agency they dealt with dishing out so---paper among different functions, you know, so forth. Managed to maintain this so-called extreme poverty appearance [laughs]. Different ways of dealing with it. Okay? All right? And therefore, to that, I was just really a kid, but married early, I was, what, 21, 22, yeah. But anyway, I learned very quickly. INTERVIEWER: How did you learn that? [00:36:00] DOI: Just survival. One of the reason why they didn't have much choice is because no one in the education division who was American, you know, had the language facility that I did. Okay, and the Japanese trusted me. The Ministry of Education gave a huge party for me when I was---they heard I was leaving. And then the minister of education, who I worked with over a period of---they came and visited me when I was in Chicago, and, “Anything you want, let me know,” in terms of information and so forth. That's why I got the dissertation done. When I wrote it, I decided to take the Japanese point of view rather than the American. If you examined that, you note that I did not interview and include in there the American's point of view of what happened, but I was getting the Japanese point of view, okay? INTERVIEWER: And that leads us back to this---the CIE and your job. Two things, first one, your story about practically using access to paper . . . This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 10 of 22 �DOI: Mm-hmm. INTERVIEWER: . . . to get a result that you wanted. DOI: That's right. INTERVIEWER: Okay. DOI: Not what I wanted, what MacArthur wanted, I was told [laughs]. INTERVIEWER: I didn't think it was anything other than that. But what interests me is I have heard throughout the last two years, story after story after story of a Nisei linguist who figured out a simple, direct, practical way of problem-solving. I always asked them where did you learn how to do that, what kind of training did you get to do that. So I ask you, how do you figure that out? DOI: Well, first of all, we, the job fell to me because the one who's the director was a civilian who was brought in---first it was the military, lieutenant commander. And he was the one that set up the division that I was primarily responsible for, textbook control and rewriting [00:38:00] them. All right. And---but he retired, and he returned to Stanford, okay? High caliber people. And the---they then put this job on the market, they had to, Washington, D.C., and what they got was an ex-missionary, okay? And who had some education, of course [indiscernible] a master's degree. And he was brought in as the---over--a director of textbooks and curriculum, you know, rewriting and publications. And we had specialists who were specialists in chemistry, physics, science, teaching, so on. But apart from that, the one that dealing with the manufacture of textbooks and review, you know, in accordance with the requirements of SCAP, that's short name for General MacArthur, okay? is that the---and then I was the operating, the Japanese knew who ran that place. It was me. We never said that, you didn't have to. Okay? All right? Of course he couldn't even speak the language, and only one thing they hear the terrible reputation from him, but I didn't squeal on him, though. He expected presents from the Japanese. And I made that an absolute no-no. Okay? [Laughs.] All right. No, Japanese were very generous with their gifts, especially at the public level, you know, I mean, officers. And when you're dealing with Caucasians, former enemies, you know, a lot of things were excluded. But I dealt with them---we dealt very honestly with each other. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 11 of 22 �INTERVIEWER: So you establish yourself as the authority-in-chief, so to speak, whether you officially have that rank [00:40:00] or not. DOI: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: You cultivate the relationship with the Japanese nationals . . . DOI: That's right. INTERVIEWER: . . . who owned the businesses. DOI: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And then you figure out . . . DOI: And the ministry too. INTERVIEWER: And the minis---oh that's right, the Ministry of Education. DOI: The principal minister of education and I were considered the guys who got things done when they had to get done. That was the relationship we had. INTERVIEWER: Now as I understand it, the goal of civilian information and education, the education end of it, was to pare out ultranationalists, all of that stuff that Japanese were taught, put in democracy. A cynical viewpoint would be that so what's the difference. You're switching ultranationalism for democracy, it's propaganda anyway. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 12 of 22 �DOI: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: That's cynical, but how would you respond to that? DOI: Well, okay, first of all, the aspect what we call cynical, you know, is that the difficulty of what we call social studies, all right---now today if you were to say “Oh, I was a social studies teacher,” that's not a compliment. What the hell is social studies? You know. You people went through social studies. What is it? Is it history? Is it sociology? What is this? you know, what do you call social studies? And this is a problem we keep running into. Social studies expert, it was very difficult to define, you know. And for that reason, I didn't spend too much time with that, you know, the content. Because it was obviously, if it's obviously anti-American, you know, or anti-democrat, then you knew what to do. But all these shady aspects of it, you know. For example, the very simple on equality, sexual equality. [00:42:00] That became an area where I was asked to give some attention to, you know. And I had some very intelligent women who were helping me, the Jap---and as well as American. And the thing is that the American GIs helped in ways that we never thought they would. Very early from one of the things they very impressed the urban Japanese women was that, the so-called, the trams, streetcars, very crowded, all right. And the GIs, military personnel, could step on anyone without paying and make room, this or that. Well, it was crowded and then these poor women, you know, hunched over, holding the family goods on the back and holding onto the little, you know, kids, okay? And then while the men would be standing---sitting down and then the women would all be holding their---hold their balance, the American GI comes along, steps in, looks around, says, “Get your ass out of here,” to the men. “Get up! You're gonna give up your seat to the ladies. That's how things are done in America.” [Laughs.] Made me so proud of the Americans that time, you know. And the thing is is that they made an immediate impact on the Japanese women who were---are they going to---”Democracy, [speaks Japanese]. You know, if this is democracy for women, it's not a bad idea. You got it? And that made an immediate impact on millions of women, many of them educated, you see. And so we never had any problems with that. There was a men's group who were trying to slow things down. But you better be careful, because if you have turned up the record, you had been suspected of having committed or authorized the doing of, you might say---what's the word I'm thinking of---of raping women and so forth and so on, you know, mistreating women, so forth, is that they were in deep trouble. And I think the women made great progress. And I fortunately didn't have to be very helpful, largely because it was taken up so quickly. All those stories, you know, about men, about the American men getting up there and get your ass out of here, and getting the ladies seated properly. They weren't looking because they were goodlooking, any of the gals, you know, they just didn't like to see the women staggering under these loads while the men are sitting down [laughs]. INTERVIEWER: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 13 of 22 �Clash of culture. DOI: Yeah, it was. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. DOI: And it was American GI, you know, who established that point, that difference. INTERVIEWER: And how did the Japanese male, the Japanese national male then . . . DOI: They kept their mouths shut, they knew better. INTERVIEWER: [Laughs.] DOI: Seriously. INTERVIEWER: I know, it just you sound like the Godfather sitting there saying that. “They knew better.” [Laughs.] DOI: Yeah, seriously. And for that reason, I never had to deal with that. I just had---only time that I had--came close to it was, the women who were brought over, experts, they were professionally established people, professor in universities and superintendents and so forth. Couple of occasion, the guys that designated men, the Japanese, their counterpart in the Ministry of Education, they were pretty, what's the word for---sexist, you know. And they had a hard time deeming equally with the opposite sex. And then I was once called in, and they said, [00:46:00] “Hey, we got a problem, Jim. Can you talk to them?” And I did. And I told our, you know, I told our ladies, "Look,” you know, “you're gonna have to coach them. It's all right, don't be afraid to tell them you know what you've been telling them. What you've got to understand is that these men were brought up that way, okay?" And we were changing it. And look at it this way, you're---you people---the change in direction and the speed at which it's going to take place, you people are in charge of. Never forget that. But realize that for these men who have all the entirety of their lives looked upon the male as a superior creature, okay. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 14 of 22 �INTERVIEWER: One of the things that I find interesting as well is that when a Nisei linguist is sent into occupied Japan, they are part of the conquering army. DOI: Yes. INTERVIEWER: They don't lord it---most the stories I hear, they don't lord anything over them. But, in some cases, like yours, and a couple other guys I've talked to, they get in a position where they have real power, like you said. Me and the Ministry of Education, the head of that, we got things done. DOI: That's right. INTERVIEWER: And I believe you. DOI: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Having that kind of real power, I'm not talking about, you know, the pencil pusher, okay? DOI: Yeah, yeah. INTERVIEWER: How do you not be seduced by that to take advantage of Japanese citizens and the situation? DOI: I'll be perfectly honest, well, one thing, you know, is that my wife Mary just finished college, and she was an equalist, okay? And whenever I ran into something I couldn't quite understand, I would turn to her. I didn't have to say very much, she says, "Daddy,” she said, “that's not the way to go," you know. “What am I supposed to do?” She says, "Well, first of all, listen," she says. [Laughs.] INTERVIEWER: [00:48:00] She's training you already. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 15 of 22 �DOI: Yeah, she was, really. INTERVIEWER: And then you're training [indiscernible;simultaneous talking]. DOI: Yeah, that's right. And she, you know, she would---she had just graduated liberal arts college, and none--just forget the fact that she would spend time deprived of her citizenship, sent to camp. She was a newspaper editor, too, in camp, okay? And the thing is that, to this day, to the day we were married 63 years, and I lost her just about two years ago. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, sorry. It's tough. DOI: And to the dying death, dying breath, she always made sure that I treated women, you know, as equals. In fact, better than equals [laughter]. But, no, I understand what you're saying. And the ministers of education came---one program was allowed the ministers of education and the other ministers, to travel to America, and let them roam around. And the ones they had for Chicago, they all called me, and they got my address, you know. I was a graduate student then. And they would come right away [and] bring me some papers that they thought I was interested in. Okay? And they said, “Oh, he might comment on that, here, here,” you know. And they knew that something about---some of my friends over there told them the kind of thing I'm doing on my dissertation, you see. And, oh, they knew right away, the--that---what would be of interest to me. And I used to take them shopping, because one thing they wanted was, their wives wanted was good-looking shoes. You know, shoes, good-looking shoes, are hard to get after you've lost a five-, four- or five-year war [laughs]. INTERVIEWER: [Laughs.] And we all know how important shoes are. DOI: That's right. [00:50:00] INTERVIEWER: For real. Go on. DOI: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 16 of 22 �Anyway, and we talked, and then they asked me one thing, “Don't mention my name,” you see. I never mentioned their names. In my dissertation, I never mentioned their names. I simply said an official. INTERVIEWER: That's fascinating. DOI: And the reason for being this is that, see, the one thing that I didn't deal with and I wanted to deal with, but the Ford Foundation wouldn't support my proposal, was going past the period in 1950 and into '55 and beyond, even, I would've done it myself. And this is a thing about how being occupied and the impact it had upon the institutions there. I---well, let me step one back, okay? See because I wanted to come to America, I mean I wanted to return to complete my college degree, okay. I only had a year of college, technically speaking. And some of the officers at CI and E did not want to lose me, okay? And--but the thing is that---so they made every effort to make sure that, that when I went back, that I will go to a good place. They were about six officers. They were all major university types, and majors. And they said, “Well, we'll take care of that, Jim, for you.” “What do you mean you're gonna take care of?” you know. I didn't know whom to write to or anything, back there, commissioned officers. They wrote, and then a couple weeks later, I had been admitted to [00:52:00] Harvard, Chicago, and Stanford [laughs]. And they---with the instructions as follows: “You're gonna go to your Ph.D. Never mind screwing around bachelor's degrees.” So I don't have a bachelor's degree. I'm a University of Chicago product. Okay? And that's the way things worked, okay, is that it became a part of my career as well. Okay? And therefore, it was, you know, beyond the fact that I wrote the dissertation, I would never say anything about what I---where I put my sticky hands [laughs]. Okay? All right? And the thing is is that--but they were very good, though, 'cause they brought in on the idea of democracy, I felt by the time I was leaving. And therefore I resented, I damn near wrote a letter to, memo to [laughs] to this general himself, a brigadier general was assigned the last years I was there to be the Director of the Ministry of Education and so forth. And they were trying to get across a piece of legislation. And MacArthur wanted it and so forth. And the minister, who was a very able person, and a liberal, couldn't get the Ministry, I mean, the---what do you call, the equivalent of Congress itself to move, you know. And that the general called for a meeting, he says, and somehow I got---that Doi was to be there---only one. And then the minister himself, the three of us. I thought, “Oh boy, so what the hell is this gonna be like?” [laughs] you know. I was afraid he was gonna get up and fire the minister, and he was a real liberal, a good one. He later became president of University Hiroshima, [00:54:00] you know, among other things. But when he was a young man he was placed in confinement. He lost his assistant professorship at the best university in Japan, this was in the '30s, because he was seen as red, okay? But anyway, there we were sitting down, and then this general just sat down there, and "You tell this son of a bitch, you know, if he doesn't get this thing done by tomorrow afternoon, I'm gonna have his ass." [Laughter.] I thought to myself, “Nobody in Japan talks that way.” And I'm struck, “How should I translate this?” You know, but Morito was very wise, “Yoroshii, yoroshii,” telling me, I understand, “Wakarimashita,” he says loudly, and the general was happy, “I get the message.” I was---what can I do to translate this then This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 17 of 22 �[laughs]. In a culture that's so---a man so highly regarded, you know, by the Japanese as well as by the Americans who worked with him. INTERVIEWER: We have only five minutes left. DOI: What else do you want to know? INTERVIEWER: A historian is gonna sit in a room by themselves with this transcription of your interview, and they're gonna read it, and they're gonna glean whatever information they can. What do you want that Army historian to know most about Nisei linguists who served in occupation? DOI: Nisei linguists. Yes, okay. Bear in mind is that we were---none of us were trained, you know, as soldiers in a serious way, because actually whereas one might spend a month of---to be a pilot or a tank, you know, run tanks, and also be a fighting battalion, et cetera. [00:56:00] We sat there for five days, six days of the week actually, every Saturday we were examined. And very intense study. Okay? But had very little to do with being a soldier. You know. And on note the fact that when we got to the Philippines, we had to carry a gun. We were responsible for them, but they took away---they wouldn't give us any bullets. They never said anything, why they wouldn't give us bullets. And we had to live under the circumstances of things like, oh yes, if in the event that we would be---will likely be captured by the Japanese, the first task of the lieutenant who was in charge of usually six men to 12 men, you know, as linguists, okay? If it looked as if they're gonna be captured, their task, number one duty was to kill us to avoid our being tortured by the Japanese, you see. If they find out that these are Japanese, damn it, but the thing is that they're traitors as far as we're concerned, you know. Nobody called us that, incidentally, not to our faces anyway [laughs]. And I would say that the---well, as far as the Niseis are concerned, and all I can say is, overall, the---oh, that lieutenant general who was in charge of intelligence. INTERVIEWER: Willoughby. DOI: Willoughby, okay. He said publicly, not just once but several times, that we, I think we were able to end the war . . . INTERVIEWER: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 18 of 22 �Two years early. DOI: Two years earlier. Yeah, that's a hell of a compliment. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, that was during the war. What I'm interested in is more the occupation. DOI: Okay. INTERVIEWER: What do I say about Nisei [indiscernible; simultaneous talking]. DOI: Yeah, as far as occupation is concerned, let's put it this way---in fact it's a little complicated because, first of all, you see, [00:58:00] the cop---it was the ten-year plan for the occupation was brought down to five. Okay? And that's why my end at five, you know, five years. And the thing is is that that was because it worked. We were able to turn our back to the Japanese again in five years. There were no incidents that I can think of where there were murders, terrorists. The word terrorist didn't occur. INTERVIEWER: So that was occupation as a whole. DOI: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Specifically Nisei linguists, what can I say to the Army historian? DOI: Well, what the people like Willoughby said. We, because of our efforts, we were able to end, you know, occupation, you know, for five years. INTERVIEWER: Okay, final question. Did you ever find your mom? DOI: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 19 of 22 �No. I found that she did, got remarried. But she had left Hiroshima area, was in the Tokyo-Osaka, actually there was a period in which we were both in Japan, I mean, Tokyo. But the Japanese wanted to help me. You know, they had linkages everywhere. But I thought, no, I didn't want to mix that kind of a personal matter with my job, okay. And I learned a lot of things about responsibility too, because I honestly did have quite a responsible position for, you know, I was . . . INTERVIEWER: What were you, 21, 22? DOI: Yeah, that's about all I was. My first real job, you know. And then I realized the importance of trusting and being trusted. INTERVIEWER: Wow. DOI: Okay. And I think that in that way, I was happy, I was glad that war turned out the way it did. I---the--and the horrible part of it is, if [01:00:00] we had waited much longer to bring the war to an end, I don't know what the hell Russia would be doing. They probably would be . . . INTERVIEWER: That's a whole 'nother world. Hey, we're ready to get---thank you for your service to our country, and thank you for coming to talk with us. DOI: That question that you raised at the very end, that's a judgment that I didn't want to make. INTERVIEWER: I understood. DOI: Because there's so much else going on, you see. Like my brother-in-law, he had a very important role in exports, or imports, you know. And he, a lot of people felt that they could make fortunes. I don't know if they did or didn't, you know. INTERVIEWER: Right. This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 20 of 22 �DOI: But economically, they also made some major changes. But I don't know what they were. I was dealing with the education aspect of it. INTERVIEWER: Right. DOI: And to be perfectly honest, the Japanese did adopt the terms democracy and freedom. We did change them culturally, okay? And we have not succeeded to the extent in anywhere else I can think of. INTERVIEWER: That is so true. DOI: Okay? And I was there, I lived those moments. Yeah. Oh, I did little things like, for example, mothers pregnant, their milk wouldn't work. These are officials’ wives, the young ones they marry. I went immediately to the PX and bought canned milk, you know, the powdered milk. “Take this to your friends.” And that's how we also made friends with [laughs] the next generation. INTERVIEWER: That's right. DOI: Oh, wait, what we did, you know, we were not people who were raping the land. That's another thing, it was understood that we should avoid eating in restaurants and so forth, eating at other people's--Japanese homes, because they have to struggle. Actually, in the country, they were pretty well-off overall. But people were not to be extravagant in their own way, you see. Well, anyway, [01:02:00] I wish I could draw out more, but, you know, one of the terrible parts of it is, is that while I'm healthy as all get-out, almost embarrassingly so, yet at the same time, my memory is not what it used to be. Therefore, I'm sorry to say that if this were a few years earlier, I might've remembered more. INTERVIEWER: You were fine. You gave us great information. DOI: Well, that's good. INTERVIEWER: This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 21 of 22 �That's terrific, yeah. No, I thank you very, very much. DOI: Well, fine. INTERVIEWER: Wonderful stuff. Okay. DOI: Okay. INTERVIEWER: Then we got to get you back to your apart---appointment. DOI: Yes, thank you. INTERVIEWER: I promised, and I . . . This transcript is hereby made available for research purposes only by Go For Broke National Education Center. Page 22 of 22 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Isao James Doi oral history interview, October 19, 2010 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Isao James Doi oral history interview transcript [full interview], October 19, 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doi, Isao: narrator Hawkins, Richard: interviewer Go For Broke National Education Center: publisher Type The nature or genre of the resource Transcriptions Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Extent The size or duration of the resource. 22 pages, typescript Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-10-19 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Seattle, Washington Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Go For Broke National Education Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2010OH1026_T_Doi https://ndajams.omeka.net/files/original/512b0bbf9bf7bf84e47c8c5c768e791d.xml 60ca95de3645b042f2c50e7c71dcc25f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Isao James Doi oral history interview, October 20, 2010 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. URL http://www.goforbroke.org/oral_histories/mp4/1026A-Doi-James-2.m4v Location of Birth Stockton, California Incarceration Facilities Stockton Temporary Detention Facility Rohwer Concentration Camp War or Conflict World War, 1939-1945 Branch of Service Army Entrance into Service Drafted or Volunteered Drafted Nickname James Jim Unit of Service Military Intelligence Service (MIS) Campaigns/Battles Philippine Islands Post-war Occupation of Japan Tokyo Index indicates an oral history item with an XML file indexed in OHMS. Yes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Isao James Doi oral history interview, part 2 of 2, October 20, 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doi, Isao: narrator Hawkins, Richard: interviewer Go For Broke National Education Center: publisher US Army Center of Military History: sponsor Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Go For Broke National Education Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2010OH1026A_02_Doi Description An account of the resource Doi discusses his wife; talks about education reform and equality in Japan; discusses Monbusho (Ministry of Education); and talks about private universities in Japan. Next, Doi discusses why he almost attended Todai (University of Tokyo); discusses returning to the United States, attending college, and his employment; and discusses his thesis. Lastly, Doi discusses the education system in the United States; talks about “shushin”; discusses women’s voting rights in Japan; and talks about Japanese citizens in regards to education reform. Subject The topic of the resource Japan--Post-World War II Allied Occupation of Japan Industry and employment Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral Histories Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/m4v Extent The size or duration of the resource. 0:37:11 Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010 October 20 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Seattle, Washington college education equality Japanese citizens post-war Japan reform wife https://ndajams.omeka.net/files/original/96cff7721e35eece065883a5e5e4962f.xml 1473fc042852d807bbbf0ccaf1316276 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Isao James Doi oral history interview, October 20, 2010 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. URL http://www.goforbroke.org/oral_histories/mp4/1026A-Doi-James-1.m4v Location of Birth Stockton, California Incarceration Facilities Stockton Temporary Detention Facility Rohwer Concentration Camp War or Conflict World War, 1939-1945 Branch of Service Army Entrance into Service Drafted or Volunteered Drafted Nickname James Jim Unit of Service Military Intelligence Service (MIS) Campaigns/Battles Philippine Islands Post-war Occupation of Japan Tokyo Index indicates an oral history item with an XML file indexed in OHMS. Yes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Isao James Doi oral history interview, part 1 of 2, October 20, 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doi, Isao: narrator Hawkins, Richard: interviewer Go For Broke National Education Center: publisher US Army Center of Military History: sponsor Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Go For Broke National Education Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2010OH1026A_01_Doi Description An account of the resource Doi discusses corresponding with his wife while he was in Japan; talks about his first impressions of Japan; and discusses some of his experiences with Japanese citizens. He then talks about his involvement with the Civil Information and Education Division (CIE); discusses his high school valedictorian speech; and talks about his assignment as part of the newspaper division of CIE. Next, Doi discusses the barter system in Japan; discusses a CIE lieutenant and mentors; talks about his brother-in-law’s military service; and discusses his friendships while in Japan. Doi also talks about the Purge in occupied Japan; and discusses his childhood including talking about his parents, school, and how being bilingual during high school helped prepare him for his future work in CIE. Lastly, Doi discuses African American soldiers; and talks about loyalty to the United States. Subject The topic of the resource Education Japan--Post-World War II World War II--Military service--Military Intelligence Service Allied Occupation of Japan Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral Histories Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/m4v Extent The size or duration of the resource. 0:55:09 Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010 October 20 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Seattle, Washington childhood Civil Information and Education Division (CIE) correspondence employment Japan Japanese citizens parents wife https://ndajams.omeka.net/files/original/2864b2c470d2aeb2321160943f34220b.xml e46eb1a0a2926e9edd13753cb119fbc5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Isao James Doi oral history interview, October 19, 2010 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. URL http://www.goforbroke.org/oral_histories/mp4/1026-Doi-James-1.m4v Location of Birth Stockton, California Incarceration Facilities Stockton Temporary Detention Facility Rohwer Concentration Camp War or Conflict World War, 1939-1945 Branch of Service Army Entrance into Service Drafted or Volunteered Drafted Nickname James Jim Unit of Service Military Intelligence Service (MIS) Campaigns/Battles Philippine Islands Post-war Occupation of Japan Tokyo Physical Media Notes The condition of the physical media The subject of sexual assault comes up. Index indicates an oral history item with an XML file indexed in OHMS. Yes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Isao James Doi oral history interview, part 1 of 1, October 19, 2010 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doi, Isao: narrator Hawkins, Richard: interviewer Go For Broke National Education Center: publisher US Army Center of Military History: sponsor Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Go For Broke National Education Center Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2010OH1026_01_Doi Description An account of the resource Doi discusses about his early life experiences and gives some detail about his family background. He details about how he ended up in the Military Intelligence Service (MIS). Doi also discusses about his experiences in the Philippines and in occupied Japan. Subject The topic of the resource Allied Occupation of Japan World War II--Asiatic-Pacific Theater --Philippine Islands World War II--Military service--Military Intelligence Service World War II--American Concentration Camps Type The nature or genre of the resource Oral Histories Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/m4v Extent The size or duration of the resource. 1:03:00 Language A language of the resource eng Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010 October 19 Spatial Coverage Spatial characteristics of the resource. Seattle, Washington Allied Occupation of Japan Military Intelligence Service (MIS) Philippines post-war Japan